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[Kleban]

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html
 

What really surprises me is how the Council could implement such a ban without first conducting an investigation into the perceived risk. Had they done so they would have found out that boilers are fitted with a Pressure Relief Valve which is set to operate at 110% of the design pressure - that is, the design pressure + 10%.  Excess pressure would be safely released thereby eliminating the risk of an explosion. Secondly, a properly designed boiler with a current test certificate should be proof enough that the boiler is safe to use.

From what I can gather from the news article, the ‘Clubs Insurance’ does not cover boats operated by Steam. Therefore I think the Club are using the H&S slant of the perceived risk of an explosion as an excuse to get around it.

..... ‘We erected the notices banning steam and petrol powered craft on the advice of the model boat club with whom we have a close relationship,’ a spokesman said .....

I think the italicize comment taken from the Daily Mail news article says it all!

This whole business is a sorry state of affairs.

[mersey dave]

Really wound them up now!

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html

  Rergards  Ian.

A Nice Photo of MY Tug.


Regards Dave.

[dave301bounty]

Really wound them up now!

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1380787/Health-safety-killjoys-ban-dangerous-model-steamboats.html

  Rergards  Ian.

  love this ,,knowing this lot ,hankies will be out and you will get talked about .

[dave301bounty]

I think it is time to set up a  New Brighton Model steam Boat Club, they have not got sole use of the lake so there is no reason why another club could not be set up.

peter

This is a question and a possible new therory .to hell with old  women and the rubbish that goes round

[john s 2]

Instead of prohibiting steam. Surely common sense would have dictated a change of insurence company? Is
this to simple? My clubs insurence covers steam. So is possible to obtain. John.

[wibplus]

We had a very similar problem with the club I used to fly helicopters at. Their dinosaur of a "Hon Sec" (and I use the term extremely loosely)    banned the use of Spektrum DX6i transmitters because the were designed to be powered by 4 AA batteries. 
Those who had them were prevented from flying unless they either bought a new TX or adapted them to use a "welded" battery pack, (a move which would invalidate the TX warranty)     
After many weeks of argument, and the club being told what to do with their airspace, a few of us left under acrimonious circumstances, and joined another club.
The dinosaurs maintained that "if the TX was dropped, the batteries would likely become disconnected".    
We maintained that if the TX was dropped (whilst flying a heli), it would not matter one iota if the batteries fell out because the heli would already be out of control and crashing.   
Some weeks later, the BMFA approved the DX6i saying that a company such as Spektrum would never jeopardise their reputation by designing something which was inherently unsafe.            

The point I am trying to make is,  take your argument and all the evidence you can muster and confront the "Lawgivers". You will probably win in the end since they cannot prove their point.      

[knoby]

Common sense seems lacking in this case. I get the feeling there is something going on in that club that we don't know about. Internal club politics is, unfortunately, all to common in every type of hobby.
Personally i don't see what the council could do if you sailed there & had a copy of your insurance & test certificates with you.

Cheers Glenn

[The long Build]

We had a very similar problem with the club I used to fly helicopters at. Their dinosaur of a "Hon Sec" (and I use the term extremely loosely)     banned the use of Spektrum DX6i transmitters because the were designed to be powered by 4 AA batteries.  

How was the H.Sec able to enforce a Ban, was it carried in a vote by the club , or just on his say so, if just his say so then it was not valid.

Did any one see the News NW , I taped ITv in Error Doh..

One thing for sure, all this has given an old club a lot of exposure, unfortunately just the wrong type..

[red181]

just out of curiosity, if it is a valid ban by wirral borough council, how come at Gautby Road in Birkenhead, a lake in the middle of a housing development, its ok to race high speed ic boats? (but not at New Brighton )can steam operate there, and what about Hoylake just down the road from New Brighton, and Ashton Park in West Kirby? all fall under same council? can Steam operate at these lakes?

[wibplus]

How was the H.Sec able to enforce a Ban, was it carried in a vote by the club , or just on his say so, if just his say so then it was not valid.

Most of his Committee were plank flyers like he was and also did loads of "bowing and scraping" when he snapped his fingers. Voting was a foregone conclusion.   

[The long Build]

Just Watched the News report, The biggest load of Horlicks I have ever seen and Heard,   An Alan Dean and Michael Friend (as quoted on the report), Alan saying how the boilers might explode and send shrapnel into your eyes !! or anything, with Michael saying how the oil which is used to lubricate the steam engines might pollute the water, From what I saw of the water last time I doubt it would make any difference, and in a lot of cases is probably the same oil that is used to lubricate the prop shafts on a lot of boats..


you can view the the report here..  and is 16.20 into the clip

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010nr0x/North_West_Tonight_27_04_2011/

[sailorboy61]

As its a public amenity, presumably the steam and ic people will be entitled to a refund on their council tax for something they have been 'banned' from using.
Health and Safety, what a load of boll**ks!!

[garston1]

I am a member of new brighton club as well as ellesmere port. Can i just say that to all that are going on about no-one ever seeing a boiler blowing up, let me tell you a little story. Late last year one of the ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.
It's the Council that has banned steam and IC from new brighton, not the club. All the club is asking is that MEMBERS do not sail these boats as our insurance doesn't cover them. As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance. The club can't stop them as it is a public lake and it's down to the council to enforce it. It's not health and safety gone mad, it's common sense. I hope that mayhemmers can see this predicament that the clubs in. There are actually signs around the lake that says no steam boats, THAT was down to the council not the club. Don't lay the blame on the New Brighton club.

[firedup]

"As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance."
How does this make any sense to you?
I am not a member of your club bot have just spent the last 3 years building a steam engine, boat and boiler. The boiler is tested and passed I am insured and the boat will travel slower than a number of the electric boats seen on the local news broadcast.
Clearly poorly informed by the way boilers are made of copper not brass (unless they are so small that they work at very low pressure and are therefore exempt from the boiler regulations.
IC boats are a different issue on this pond clearly unsuitable.

[The long Build]

I am sorry to here of the Incident at the E'port Club and hope he has recovered,  However I can not see the ban being brought into place because of this 1 very unpleasant incident, I can say I have never seen a boiler blow, However I have seen ESC controllers set fire to boats, which in turn Could set fire to a lead acid battery sending acid flying around the area, and I have seen the after effects of this happening,(luckily no injuries apart from pride) Not because of fire but overcharging, so in theory these battery's and esc's should also be banned, Common sense works both ways..

As regards IC yes I agree that Both the Hoylake and NB ponds are far to small to be able to operate effectively

[Circlip]

Late last year one of the Ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.

  Doesn't say where the operation was being carried out, was it at the pond side, was it at the owners premises, was the "Lad" the owner who was messing with it?

   Tar and brushes spring to mind.

   Seems there are far more claims put in to the insurance companies for people tripping on pavements in the Mersey area than "Exploding" boilers. In reading the actual words and being able to understand ENGLISH, the boiler didn't explode.

  Sounds a bit like the Gerrard Hoffnung rendition of "Respected Sir"

  Regards  Ian.

[john s 2]

Garston 1 Can you tell me why your club did not alter its insurence so as to cover steam boats? Surely a decent
policy would have satisfied the council of safety? I do of course relize that you can only deal with club
members. Surely by offering the correct insurence you could boost membership instead of driving them away.
Most clubs would want to help and encourage members. Thanks John.

[Circlip]

With the introduction of a blanket ban, nobody in the club is qualified to check for basic safety requirements

  Regards  Ian.

[SteamboatPhil]

It seems odd that the picture in the sun article was a small steam boat and could (not would) be except from needing a test if you use the bar litre chart. It seems this ban stems from pure ignorance. So lets take a look, maybe the club does not have a boiler tester, well I'm sure there are a few clubs around the area that would help rather than see "no steam allowed"
Maybe there is someone in the club who thinks they know about steam (well you get them everywhere)  little knowledge etc etc, and now see's it as a danger. Small boilers (toy type, constructed of brass----not recommended by the way) can be purchased ready made with engine a boat from a well known high street nautical type shop, taken down to the pond and set off on its travels, maybe the instructions were read----who knows......now you might have a recipe for a disaster.
Sense need to prevail, this site alone has more than a few very knowledgeable persons on steam who I'm sure would have been more than happy to help and advise (I sort of include myself in that...hummmm)
And as George has said, his boat does 40mph and has no boiler........how would they feel about that.
As for the poor lad who bought the safety valve fitted it and wooosh ! (glad he's ok) that I'm afraid is a little bit of ignorance, seems like the thread in the boiler was shot.
I have been running high speed steam boats for years, as did my Father and Grandfather and in all that time the worst that has happened is a gauge glass going (loud woosh then nothing as it put out the lamp) and a tube blowing (1 sec woosh--lamp out--then nothing)
Our club as does any club affiliated to the Model Power Boat Association test all pressure vessels no mater what size (we do not follow the bar litre chart) and this why we have had no problems.
Our insurance company is happy with the way we test (they have a copy of our rules and testing procedures) so all are happy little boaters. Lets hope time will change a few minds in the New Brighton Club
 

[essex2visuvesi]

My boys were drooling over this one the other day.....

http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub20-ul1-superior/

It only runs on batteries so it must be safe for an 11yr old 

And according to their rules I can happily run this one with no worries on their little lake

[unbuiltnautilus]

As a long term member of one of the only clubs in the UK that uses pyrotechnics, I think I can add a little to this. Over the years we have encountered problems which we have overcome, we have changed insurance providers as better ones became able to cover our rather odd needs, we have dedicated Safety Officers who can advise members and are on site at our events, our rules develop and change as needed, our members are aware of the inherent risks in what they do and behave accordingly at the lakeside, we have a cordial relationship with the local council, we dont buy safety devices from ebay. In short we have evolved over the years to cope with the demands of displaying in the 21st century.
Surely this is the better option, foreward rather than backwards, heres hoping this situation resolves itself soon.

[pugwash]

The only side effect of this furore in the press could be for insurance companies to re-consider whether they will continue
to insure any club that allows "steamers" on their waters.  They could either up the premiums or for the same costs
put an exclusion on steam and i.c.  There would be no logic to this, but since when do logic and insurance companies go
together.

Geoff

[bat44]

i agree with unbuilt, could the club upgrade their insurance to cover steam boats and ic, the cost of which per member would not be that much . I must ask did the club asked for the ban or was it the chairman or committee and how did they arrive at this decision, because this does have a knock on effect, because you are saying that  steam and ic are dangerous, then you must have proof of this. Have you done any testing to back up these clams one way or another ? if so could they be printed for all of us to read. Yes steam and ic can be dangerous but electric can be just as dangerous, because if you have proof then on safety grounds alone they must be banned from every club in the country (yes , no) but before we do this some one in a responsible postion must do the tests to back up the ban

[HS93 (RIP)]

I am a member of new brighton club as well as ellesmere port. Can i just say that to all that are going on about no-one ever seeing a boiler blowing up, let me tell you a little story. Late last year one of the ellesmere port members was working on a boiler and he bought a blow off valve from ebay. He heated the boiler up and it exploded, the valve hadn't worked. Instead of opening, the valve shot off and hit the lad in the face covering him with boiling water causing serious injury and severe bruising. But club insurance didn't cover it.
It's the Council that has banned steam and IC from new brighton, not the club. All the club is asking is that MEMBERS do not sail these boats as our insurance doesn't cover them. As for members of the public who have steam boats, there's probably no doubt they haven't a boiler certificate OR insurance. The club can't stop them as it is a public lake and it's down to the council to enforce it. It's not health and safety gone mad, it's common sense. I hope that mayhemmers can see this predicament that the clubs in. There are actually signs around the lake that says no steam boats, THAT was down to the council not the club. Don't lay the blame on the New Brighton club.

was this at the lake ?you say it  exploded, did you see it ? as the boilers we use dont explode, they go at the weakest point and separate it may be an end cap it may be a gauge glass it may be a fitting , anyway the bloke was using an UN tested boiler so should not be covered, anyone one with common sense would test a new safety valve and set it up before fitting it permanently.

Peter

[HS93 (RIP)]

I wonder if the club has banned Nimh batteries or li Poly charging or use as they are far more likley to cause harm ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4lNx2Wn6Oc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQheOtdCTjs&feature=related

Peter