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[dave301bounty]

Very many thanks Liverbudgie, good to see someone with finger on pulse.

As somebody mentioned earlier, we cannot rely on the local or national Press now .......... the issue has allegedly been resolved, so "no further Press action necessary".

Hope all is well in Scouseland, my club were going to put on an 18th Century square-rigger pyro display at Latitude 53 (Liverpool International Boat Show 2011, until it was cancelled) and would have been in your vicinity next weekend.

Regards,Yarpie  the boat show opened today ,not as planned the first time ,there was two Brigs in ,t morra will be more ,but this is a warm up ,  as for the other steam .  at the Albert dock ,there were a few comments made ,some one said this lot could have been linked together ,if y,get my drift . but the buffoon who really has done no good  is not bothered .

Yarpie.

[dave301bounty]

Anything verified on this situation?  Obviously the incident has caused a lot of consternation locally (and further afield), so some form of confirmation would be appreciated out in the sticks.

Whilst the situation prevailed there was a groundswell of protest, but now that it appears to be resolved, the interest has waned.

So c'mon you local guys, let's have an update please, the issue went nationwide.

Yarpie.

  When ive got a few hours ,I will up update ,because its doing the model boat club NO good at all . but ive got to word it proper .I was there

[Netleyned]

All it needs now is the new Guy in Charge to explain the technicalities of steam power to the council officials who were conned into the action they took.
The media should likewise be informed and while the new Gi/c is at it he should tell the council officials that the swan is probably a bigger elfin safety issue

Ned

[Yarpie]

All it needs now is the new Guy in Charge to explain the technicalities of steam power to the council officials who were conned into the action they took.
The media should likewise be informed and while the new Gi/c is at it he should tell the council officials that the swan is probably a bigger elfin safety issue

Ned

netleyned, good point. Having gone National, perhaps a full and unequivocal explanation should be given.

By the way, regarding your nom-de-plume, does Netley Abbey and a washing line spring to mind?

That was a familiar name whilst I was in the mob.

Yarpie.

[pugwash]

Hey Yarpie you are talking about one of my fellow Junoites - not all of us qualified from the university of Netley.

Geoff

[Yarpie]

Hey Yarpie you are talking about one of my fellow Junoites - not all of us qualified from the university of Netley.

Geoff

A fahzand ajolopies Geoff!!! 

It was either the "College o' Knowledge" or Netley, and the precious liquid seemed to flow more copiously at Netley. (According to rumour of course).

And respect man, to all previous ships companies of HMS JUNO.

Yarpie.

[pugwash]

Yarpie, I dont have it from personal experience you understand, but anyone leaving Netley (other than by tunnel) was one of the few
matelots to have a piece of paper certifying they are sane.  What did that say for the rest of us.

Geoff

[Yarpie]

I think I know of one stoker who was proud of his "certificate", this on HMS TEAZER in 1958 Geoff.

However, we may be accused of digressing the thread, so we can only but wait for dave301bounty's update.

Good to chat.

Yarpie.

[Jindivik]

Hi,
I don't think I've missed it, but has there been any response from the manufacturers of these deadly devices?
Perhaps a lost opportunity to put the professional's argument?
Dave

[bbdave]

Well down here Teignmouth has got rid of the boating lake and made it into a skate park with steel and concrete obsticles at least no one here will be hurt by a rogue rc boat 

Dave

[pettyofficernick]

What a can of worms I appeared to have opened, (actually, it was a friend of mine who wrote to the local paper).This is how it all happened. I was at the lake one day sailing my patrol boat when I noticed the now notorious  signs, Alan Dean was there and I remarked to him how stupid the ban was,and that I had just started building a small steam boat, he then gave me the exploding speech later to be given to the TV people. I told him he was talking utter nonsense and tried to correct him on his misconceptions, as he did not have a sensible answer he got quite stroppy and ended up just saying ' we don't want them here'. I left it at that and phoned the council the next day, I was eventually put through to the director of technical services, who are apparently responsible for the lake. When I asked why steam was banned, he said it was at the request of the New Brighton and Hoylake model boat clubs on health and safety grounds.I then asked if he had done any research himself, 'no' was the reply, he did not see the need as the clubs in question were the experts ( expert= ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure)as I was getting nowhere with him, I left it at that and phoned my local councillor, who wrote to me saying the matter was being looked into, as yet I have heard nothing more. In the meantime my mate Chris had written to the readers letters section of the Wirral Globe,not even expecting it to even be printed, and the next thing I had the press on my doorstep, wanting photo's and a background story. I was quite miffed as I had just got into bed after a 16 hour nightshift, however I obliged, forgoing sleep for 'the cause'. Things just escalated from there and the next thing I new was I found myself being interviewed by Auntie Beeb for North West News. I could not go in the morning when Mr Dean made his silly statement, as It would have meant losing more sleep. I met then there late afternoon, but they edited my bit to the bone, the other lot had more say than I did. As you may have noticed from the telly and press photos, my little boat is not even finished, I explained this to the media people but it did not seem to bother them. I would like to point out that it was never my intention to cause the chairman of NBMBC to resign or the committee to stand down, I am, infact quite stunned by the reaction to all this. I fully intend to sail my boat, which will be finished very soon, but not on the clubs 'official' sailing days as the last thing I want is confrontation spoiling my fun. I think the suggestion that a New Brighton model steam boat club is a brilliant idea, but one without petty rules and regulations, where members can enjoy their hobby withour getting bogged down with nonsense. when ,merseyman ( I think that was his name ) sails his steamboat there, I hope he will get in touch so I can go and have a chat with him. Finally, a request for a little help, The boiler in my little steam launch has an engine and boiler by Krick and is basically a Wilesco single cylinder plant (Germany's answer to Mamod) and does not require a test certificate, but to keep things right I would like to have it tested, but do not know of anywhere nearby who can do this, any suggestions would be most helpfull. My new Maccsteam boiler has a 4 year certificate but I believe a steam test still has to be carried out to verify the safety valve setting.Incidentally, the SWP of the Maccsteam boiler is 60 psi, but I had it set to 40 by maccsteam as it may otherwise cause the port faces on the SVS oscillator to lift. I intend to become a countrywide member of the MPBA and taking out their insurance, so will need to comply with their regulations. I hope this has clarified the recent chain of events, and hope to meet some fellow steamboaters at New Brighton soon, and yes, that is my ugly mug in the papers and on telly.
BZ
Nick

[pettyofficernick]

Slight error, I was mistaken when I mentioned merseyman, after looking back over all the posts, I should have written liverbudgie, please accept my humble apologies.
Nick.

[Yarpie]

Very many thanks pettyofficernick for the explanation regarding this issue.

You have nothing to reproach yourself about, its high time simple logic overcame the actions of certain officials and their unfair and selfish demands. As for Council representatives issuing restrictive notices without proper advice and research, ......... well, we elect them and should have the means to deselect them. (Today for instance). Smacks a little of the "Old boy network", a practice that we were all led to believe was abolished in the 21st century.

I take it that New Brighton lake is a recreational amenty for all, much the same as our local lake. Here, we share the facility with other craft users, steam, sail, scale, fast electric and IC (as well as pedalos and inflatable ball waterwalkers). We have all come to an equitable agreement as to when we use the lake, ie, fast electric/IC in the forenoon and scale in the afternoons (broadly speaking). Very, very seldom is there a problem. Probably our best consideration to others is that when our models are not in use on the water, we bring them on to dry land, a simple expedient which gives freedom to those still using the lake. Although this presents a further danger (errant children thinking they are public toys) we are at least considering the needs of others.

I hope you enjoy sailing your steam model in your local waters once completed. It's also good to note that you bring your model well within the safety parameters laid down, that also shows a committment to the safety of others.

From an old Chief Stoker, there's nowt so nostalgic as steam, whether the real 850 psi superheated type, or the scaled down version in your steam model.   Just don't forget to have the brightwork polished before the afternoon watchmen close up.

Yarpie.

[Philipsparker]

"As for Council representatives issuing restrictive notices without proper advice and research" - strictly speaking, they did. They asked the Model Boat club, who it's not unreasonable to suggest, could be considered experts in the subject.

I don't want my council tax spent on officials ringing up one person, then another, then another, then having a meeting to discuss the 3 conflicting sets of advice, then going and doing the research from scratch. You can't blame them for the local club being wrong. Or are you saying that they should always ignore the advice of model boat clubs ?

Anyway, to be more helpful, there is only one way you get this changed - hassle the local councillors. From my own experience in local govt, nothing makes more difference. Write to the press if you like but every council knows the local rags hate themwhatever they do so it's water off a ducks back. However, all councillors have to hold local surgeries. You can go and sit in front of them and make your case. If enough people do it then they go and poke the head of whichever department runs the lake and tells them to look into it again. I've seen this work several times as the big chiefs don't like the elected representatives turning up in their offices telling them what to do.

In this case, it's a pretty minor thing and they would probably be happy to give way as they don't care much about this. They save fighting for their pet schemes.

One thing you do need to prove is that if there is a problem, the council won't be liable. They have hyperactive risk assessors and legal teams. We were once advised that we shouldn't out anything on the web at all just in case someone read it. Needless to say this was politely ignored.

[malcolmfrary]

Certainly with the council that looks after our lake, the people to contact are not the councilors, but the council officers, either tourism and leisure or technical services.  In most cases, they are the ones who advise the councilors and do the actual work.  The councilors are interested in what they are interested in, great if your problem is in that field, less so if it isn't.  A carefully nurtured contact with the parks department and a reputation for being sensible, no matter how unjustified, pays dividends in the long term, probably more than trying to influence a politician with his own agenda.
A good point that the local experts to be consulted were the actual club who used the water, in the case of my club, I would be well pleased to be considered as having a worthwhile opinion.  Its just unfortunate that the local club spokesman had, and was unwilling to let go of, bad information.

[Yarpie]

........... Its just unfortunate that the local club spokesman had, and was unwilling to let go of, bad information.

Thank you Malcolm.  And also in this case, the "experts" had their own selfish and unsubtantiated agenda. The council involved either chose to ignore the 'other side of the story' or deliberately elected not to seek it. In court cases, both prosecution and defence counsels produce "experts" from the same field, that way, justice can be dispensed.  Either way, this council has ended up with egg on their faces.

As I pointed out in my posting, public amenities involve more than one group, so their opinions should be sought as well.

I'm happy with democracy, however long it takes. As long as common sense prevails.

But who is the arbitrator of common sense??   I think he/she/it lost his/her/its job a couple of decades ago in the nation's headlong plunge into political correctness and blame culture.

A model boat club on the south coast is well known for putting on free displays for the general public, but is finding it increasingly more difficult to organise these displays with the incremental 'hoops' and 'obstacles' that the local council keep placing in their way. What used to be a harmless and pleasurable hobby is gradually turning into a Health and Safety dominated nightmare.

RIP rural England.

Yarpie.

[Philipsparker]

"And also in this case, the "experts" had their own selfish and unsubstantiated agenda. The council involved either chose to ignore the 'other side of the story' or deliberately elected not to seek it. In court cases, both prosecution and defence counsels produce "experts" from the same field, that way, justice can be dispensed.  Either way, this council has ended up with egg on their faces."

This isn't a court case. Anyway, who would put the opposing view to that held by the club ? The council have probably got better things to spend money on than arbitrating in disputes betwen (as they see it) odd bod blokes who play with toy boats.  The point is that to an outsider, someone not deeply involved in the hobby, the model boat club represents a group of individuals who should know what they are talking about when they talk about model boats. If, out of the blue, they ring up and say steam boats are little more than unexploded bombs, then they either do something about it or look forward to appearing on telly when something does happen opposite a smug looking model boat chairman who says "We told you so."

 >>:-(Sadly, today, the default position is to say no - whatever you want to do. I refer you to daytime television where every single advert break includes someone promoting suing people. I'd argue that if you want to do something positive for your hobby, drown a lawyer...

Phil

[Yarpie]

........... Anyway, who would put the opposing view to that held by the club ? ......
Phil

Phil, somebody did .......... 

But I suppose we must agree to disagree on limited aspects in this case.

I especially like your solution regarding the 'no win, no fee' rogues. 

Yarpie.

[Bryan Young]

How much pressure is generated within a domestic pressure cooker? BY.

[john s 2]

Quite a lot. Bryan. I can remember as a child watching my dinner being blasted into the kitchen ceiling when for
some reason mum took the weights off. Possibly pressure cookers now work at lower pressure. John.

[dave301bounty]

Not going to dwell on a bloody stupid remark made by some-one ,who should know better ,but a lot of this comes about with the stupidity and selfish ness of supposed to be modellers .These people have done this club no good at all .The council may have egg on its kisser ,but there are a few so -called model boaters have now created a .not nice place to sail a boat without some-one asking ,  ;did you say anything at the meeting; .There is No doubt about it ,the Idiot who has caused all this ,never mind standing down ,should resign from ,and a compleatly new club formed ,if anyone has the nowse to do it .Twice Ive been ,out of the normal times because I dont want to get into any argie bargie ,and each time there has been questions ,off some-one ,compleat strangers . Now the thing should be laid to rest by some-one ,and start afresh ,my evenings are not to be answering the  for the Idiot .shame on you .

[malcolmfrary]

How much pressure is generated within a domestic pressure cooker? BY.

I recall mine being about 15psi.  Being a "second generation" design, without a really major structural failure, if the vent vale blocked, the lid would start to lift against the clamping bar, vent excess pressure with a great deal of steam and drama, and convince the household to go to the chippy.  Earlier models had edge clamps, I don't know about any extra "over working pressure" devices, but it was possible to start releasing clamps before relieving the pressure, which was a recipe for disaster.  Not vast pressure, but a lot of volume, and there was a fund of stories about pressure cookers on the South coast heading out across the channel.
When learning about digital transmission, part of the course involved being told about how to open repeater boxes which were pressurized to about 10psi.  There was a selection of scary pictures showing what happened if you started unfastening the bolts around the lid before depressurizing.  Again, not a lot of pressure, but a great many square inches and a lot of volume.
I also recall the depot garage having a graphic poster showing the consequences of not inflating a tyre on a split rim inside a guard cage - bolts riven asunder and bits of mechanic all over the place.  100psi and a lot of volume.
Apart from the application of due caution when dealing with anything hot and anything pressurized, not much of the above applies directly to model boilers.

[three knots]

Have just spent about 2 hours looking at these comments regarding the steam ban at the lake in New Brighton . Wouldnt have bothered ,but I was down there last night and told quite a lot of what has been happening . To answer a couple of questions on here ,the club members have been told NOT to talk to the papers .I was talking to a member and he has been elected to be on the commitee ,now he wishes not to be ,but the thing is ,every thing has been like an episode out of a soap on the telly .The previous Chairman has stood down ,but the Comment maker  who caused most of this rumpus ,with his other associates still remains in his position on the clubs Commitee /whatever . This is a sorry state ,to think that this club was going places ,with a new lake being built ,albeit needing a bit more in planning but this was going to be the place to sail your boats ,models you have made over the Winter time . I Am a newcomer to these events ,so I do wish this to be sorted .The club membership seems to be suffering a little  but things do tend to sort out .Let us  wait  ,never know what lies around the corner ,it could be worse.

[firedup]

It could be worse YOU might want to sail a model steam boat
Seems to me that the situation is far from resolved DON'T TALK TOO THE PRESS its a great shame that the advice was not handed out at an earlier date.
This rubbish could have repercussions for steam boat modelers all over the UK.

[The long Build]

Its a stupid ban, the Ban is not apparently legal.. You are also asked not to feed the Ducks!! well that really works doesn't it.. like you say the club will recover but should I wish to take my steam boat there I will..

In the Meantime Check out a few pictures on this thread from the 2nd Kirklees Steam Day, a progressive club with a Common sense approach to steam..

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27868.msg298663;topicseen#msg298663