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[carlmt]

Well, I just had to put finger to keyboard and start this topic....

On another thread on this esteemed forum, a commercial kit is being built and many comments are being aired as to its quality - especially for the price.

Now - I have absolutely no truck with the OP's opinions about the kit; its quality, value or fitness for purpose of the supplied parts - he is in the best position to judge that.

My sap has been risen by the following comment on the same thread:

I, for one, do not think I will never buy another kit.  They are all grossly overpriced.  When you add together the cost of materials plus a couple of hours labour, they are a rip off.I shall only scratch build from plans in future.

I am right in the middle of producing a brand new kit and can speak here, with a little authority, that the cost of the kit in no way reflects the cost of materials and, to quote, a couple of hours of labour!!!!!!

I have spent the best part of the last 5 months just on design alone - probably 5 hours each weekday evening plus 12 hours or so each saturday and sunday...probably over 750 hours in total.....add that up at on a reasonable hourly rate!!!!!  Add in the cost of prototyping the fittings - the raw materials, the time taken..... I estimate that the first hull out of the mould will have cost me £150 in materials....not including my time!!!! That is assuming that the first one is perfect in every way and that the plug will not need remediation work to produce a second, better, hull.

I could go on...........but will desist for now and see what comments come back. It would be good to hear from some of the established kit manufacturers as to their views....

PLease be assured, the price of the kit you buy may seem expensive however there are many many hidden costs that have to be paid and this is , in the main, a cottage industry...

However - I am not defending poor quality..........
Carl

[wartsilaone]

Hi carl. Nice to here from you. I estimate that my ferry cost £800-900 to build from scratch(that includes radio gear and stuff like that). I have done my best but it's never quite the same a professional kit. There is also an art in making a kit. Even the best kits can be built badly and there is always little tweaks that need to be made to make thins fit properly an look right. Hopefully someone els has done all the hard work so I don't have to and I'm happy to pay for that. Carl, as a ferry nut I would pay this amount for one of your kits and I'm sure the quality will be spot on .   

[nhp651]

I also speak from experience in designing and developing kits, and those people who knock them for the expense of the same, HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT SO EVER, as to the hours taken in developing moulds, masters, rubbers, drawings, plans, sketches, writing instructions and collating to plans,mouldings, time to do mouldings etc etc...i could go on and on and on.....

Not only is it expensive, in time and money you have to have, unless you can do them yourself, certain amounts of "run" of materials, screen prints, boxes for all stuff, chain etc etc, and it's all a gamble for if the fickle clientelle don't like it, you are left with worthless items.

So sadly, those who complain about the price of a kit, i just say, how long does it take to build in hours....devide that into the price of kit for cost per hour of enjoyment building it, and then go down the pub and see if you can buy a couple of pints for each unit price ( the time it takes to drink two pints in anm hour) and then at the end of your time drinking your money away, tell me whether you have owt to show for your expenditure other than liver sirosis........
and then tell me whether the price of a kit is expensive given the hours of pleasure it brings.
notice I don't even go down the road of costing against price of fags, lol.

[ACTion]

Carl

Having spent all of my adult life involved with the designing and production of model aircraft and boat kits I can say that there is no basis nor excuse for the level of crassness displayed by this person. I know full well how much time is spent on kit development and it grieves me that anyone could be so ignorant of that obvious fact. If he has indeed bought a kit which he feels represents poor value (and there are  some around.......) then he should take it up with the supplier. To make such sweeping statements as "they are all a rip-off"  simply cannot be justified and makes the validity of his opinions on everything else highly questionable.

Kits have introduced more people to modelling than building from plans ever did, irrespective of whether you prefer one route over the other. There is no room for poor quality and/or poor value but manufacturers who don't or won't wake up to that will not last long in business. Good luck with your enterprise, mate, and pay no attention to stupid remarks like these.

DM

[nhp651]

Just to add a little  to what I said about how ungreatfull some modellers are with regards to your hard work and efforts, especially about quality, ( and I have to admit I am guilty at times about making comment on quality of kits) you then get the plonker who will ring you up at 23.30 hours to ask ( when you have just spent 15 months designing and developing a model lifeboat) whether you will be bringing out a different class "within the next few months".

When you say NO, because they take so much time, they then give you a mouthful because it is their  god's given right to demand that what they want, should be readily available on the market for them and them alone..........I tell you, SOME PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA AT ALL!!!

[carlmt]

Thanks for all the comments so far guys - I have to say, the original remarks were not directed at me or my venture, more to kit costs generally.........It just got my back up a bit(!) and I didnt want to hi-jack the very informative thread that is running elsewhere by responding to comments that, to me, were quite offensive to the efforts of a few to provide a 'service' to the majority.

I have to agree that there are cases of poor workmanship in some kits - as there are in many areas of life - and maybe these need to be addressed. To me, the best way of dealing with these issue is to go direct to the manufacturer (if possible) and discuss with them.

As an example, my wife and I own a motorhome which cost us £33,000. Now, for this money you would expect an almost perfect vehicle. Far from it. We have had problems - mostly to do with workmanship. Each motorhome is practically hand-built. There will be errors. However, it is how the manufacturer deals with these problems that, to me, sets them apart from the others..... Burying their heads in the sand is not the solution.....

Most of the complaints about kits stem from quality of fittings / parts and quality of instructions / drawings...... If these complaints are genuine (and in some cases I have seen myself, they are), then surely it is in the manufacturers interest to get them sorted?

Yes - there may be a case for complaint about the cost of a poor kit being dissproportionate, however this sort of complaint should only serve to galvanise the manufacturer into investigating the issue and rectifying it.

In my opinion, kits in this country are good value for money for what you get, but agree that the quality in some cases can be improved.
Carl

[pugwash]

I must agree with the remarks posted above - for what is a quite limited market there is a lot of time and and expense bringing a kit
to market and I am sure most of us realise this. There are of course some "people" for want of a better description, who
want something for almost nothing and do not appreciate the problems/costs of developing a new kit.
But, and there is always a but, though most manufacturers both big and small do their best there are some who seem to have poor quality
control.  I have only ever bought one kit and that was to use to cannibalise to make another model.  90% of the components were not
used so I eventually sorted through them with a view to keeping some bits to use in any future builds, that is when I really noticed the
poor quality of the white metal and resin castings.  Even though I know I will need some the the parts in future I have scrapped them
as they are not up to standard.  I am not going to name the manufacturer but can only hope that topics like this can encourage
the FEW poor kit makers to check their quality control and perhaps give more value for money..

Geoff

[wartsilaone]

I'm casting some ships lifeboats for a mayhem college. They are only small and I only need to make two but it's taking ages to get the master right (I am now on version two because I messed the first one up) When I add the cost of raw materials including the silicone rubber for the mould(not cheap) its becoming quite expensive. There is no way my heart would allow me to charge the full cost of producing these if I get anything at all as I consider it as practice for the future. If I do get anything I'll donate it to Neils lifeboat fund. There I've said it can't go back on it now.

Ali  

[nhp651]

If I do get anything I'll donate it to Neils lifeboat fund. There I've said it can't go back on it now.

thank you ali, from all of us....we appreciate your kind guesture.

neil.

[Roadrunner]

LOL guess your all referring to MY build!

I understand the ins and outs of how these kits are produced and the time involved in the construction of plugs and so forth, however i have to point out that in general some if not most of these kits are knocked out a pace in which quality suffers.

Now over times moulds do degrade and company's make new ones, Take Model slipway, there kits have always been of top quality, but now even they understand that some of the mouldings coming out are not of a quality they would like to see, hence many of there kits are being revamped using CNC methods, so a big thumbs up to them 

I'm my case... the kit i'm doing if from the first batch ever made (proof on my blog) of the moulds so really they should be perfect as no degrading of the tooling should have occurred so soon,but since there quality is pretty damn poor i have no choice but to point this out and wonder why some company's even after the amount of work they may or may not put in still think its acceptable to send parts out that really below par.

Now not every company that make kits knocks out poor parts, but in my case my moans about deans marines. rather then anyone else!

These kits really do cost us a small fortune some upwards of £1000, now when i spend over the £250 mark i do expect a level of quality if i had spent £1000 for parts that came in the quality i have sitting in my work shop i would be sending them back and asking for a refund.

I'm not being fussy all these parts do need cleaning up regardless who makes them, just some company's feel that any old rubbish will do!

I'm also not the only one that's had or having issues with quality of parts from Deans marines... but i'm to the point where moaning to them is just a waste of my time when i can fix the issue quicker then they could answer the phone!

[ACTion]

R-R
Your build log shows commendable restraint in the face of some pretty awful fare. The comments referred to by Carl et seq aren't yours. They came from a person who would have us believe not only that ALL kits are a rip-off but that he is having "similar" problems with a Model Slipway Aziz - one of the best and most popular kits available and in a totally different league to the one you are building. As such I would say that he is not a kit builder and is out simply to make that point abundantly clear. Unfortunately understatement is not his strength. The way his comments read you might even be forgiven for thinking that it was a kit manufacturer who was responsible for putting him in hospital for complaining! I can think of only one other Forum member who is so "anti-kit", but he wouldn't pen such asinine nonsense as this.

Tootsie (or whatever)
You have ceased to have any credibility. Might I suggest you take up basket-weaving?

DM

[Roadrunner]

Thanks Dave,

No kit is ever perfect, even i know that, but as its been said before a good kit can look bad if built badly, i know, i have made my fair share of cock ups in the past! Kits in general are of a reasonable quality and to be fair not that bad, i have others kits sat in the workshop im quite happy with the quality infact one of which is so perfect that the white metal parts went together with only a light sand to remove the flash lines, but the one im working on is driving me insane, well its certainly incressed my smoking quantity while in the workshop anyhow 

At the end of the day like many of you, if you put the time in to the model your rewarded regardless of the state of the kit, if you half ass it then your never going to be happy, im not a perfect builder, far from it, but some expect to have ''expert'' results for little effort and it just don't work that way! in one month all i have done is trim a hull drilled 84 port holes, put some balsa frame work in and fit the deck shape and a few odds and ends, slow progress but i know the outcome will be to a high standard even if not perfect, but that's down to a mix of acquired skills (some of which im still learning) and the time taken not rushed just to get it on the water.

[wartsilaone]

Like ACTion said, The guy in question probably can't make an Airfix spitfire without messing it up. I wouldn't worry too much.

Ali.

[andyn]

They are all grossly overpriced.  When you add together the cost of materials plus a couple of hours labour, they are a rip off.

Few hours labour? I've just spent a solid three weeks producing what is probably one of the most basic kits going. I've spent around 40 hours polishing the mould for the hull alone..

This guy is talking out of his rectum

[Roadrunner]

That makes me laugh...

! in one month all i have done is trim a hull drilled 84 port holes, put some balsa frame work in and fit the deck shape and a few odds and ends, slow progress ...

My tug build.. has been on going for 8 months now.. and im still on the hull.... ( mind you i have been busy with 3 other builds!) it takes time to build any model , some very quick , i knocked out 2 seaports in 8 weeks but conversion's don't take as long as full builds normally, but having said that it depends on the level of detail you wish to build in, take the original seaport i did for my daughter.. 1 month to finish and it was basically just a reposition of a few items and a re-spray, i took my time since it was my first seaport. the 2nd i did for a club member too the same time but with  a lot more construction & detail, but back to back building of the same item sped up the build process.

I set aside 6 months for the Komet originally but i have no doubts that it will take me till may next year to have it finished! that's not through lack of effort, its through time restrictions as well as our club is busy like most with events during the spring/summer. It may speed up when autum/ winter kicks in but it may even slow further should i take a break from it and finish my tug for a little light relief ( i would ask the wife for relief but i think she might slap me  )

 More time the better the model im sure everyone can agree on that, but as i said '' if you put the time in to the model your rewarded'' you can't expect to have expert results for little effort!


On that note of taking your time and putting the effort in, does everyone remember Tony's (tt01) build log of his loyal class tender? Tony makes no claim to being an experienced modeller in fact he keeps reminding us that he is a novice to it all, but yet the finished results were simply stunning, now that was a combination of a well though out kit, by MS and Tony taking his time, asking question when he got a bit stuck and learning with every cut and glue mark! to me i was very impressed so much so that once the tender comes back from CNC i will be purchasing one! Tony is one of many here that proves my point that taking your time and making an effort in will give you beautiful results and something to be very proud of, Tony if ya reading this good job bud !! 

[CF-FZG]

Yes the comments mentioned in the OP are probably OTT, but for most of the responders, (nearly all of who appear to be kit producers), their comments mostly come across as sour grapes.  I mean one of them even wants to deny the guy the right to express his opinion

I can't comment on the quality of the kits they are producing as I'm new to RC boats, but as a modeller of more than 35 years I can say that with the exception of one manufacturer, there's always something that could/should have been done differently/better in any aeroplane kit I've bought, (there are 2 others who I've never seen a bad comment about but no personal experience).  I look at the guys building the big jet kits that can cost well over 5k and wonder why they never complain about the shoddy workmanship but 'just get on with' the mods and repairs.


Mark

[nhp651]

did i read you right.....5 grand for an aeroplane kit.........

thank gawd i'm only interested in boats/ships.......my good lady would kill me, lol

[CF-FZG]

did i read you right.....5 grand for an aeroplane kit.........

I did say well over 5k

Take this one http://www.mibojets.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=42&lang=en  That's over 5k for the basic kit, when you add 2 engines, landing gear, radio gear and put the bombs and stuff on it, you're looking at around 20k to have it flight ready

[Colin Bishop]

Bombs?!!!!!

Should we be laying mines then?

[nhp651]

I did say well over 5k

Take this one http://www.mibojets.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=42&lang=en  That's over 5k for the basic kit, when you add 2 engines, landing gear, radio gear and put the bombs and stuff on it, you're looking at around 20k to have it flight ready

my god.......there's a whole new world out there!!

that thing is unbelievable.......incredible........i still live in a world of balsa wood spitfires..........just don't go there,  

i did notice you put the 25k in the smallest of type so my short sighted wife couldn't see ....thanks for that.

[Roadrunner]

20k ... not 25 Neil, think you should go get them glasses  but hey could always use the extra 5k for a new shed to hide the plane in, wife will never know 

[Shipmate60]

Neil,
It must be small even you couldn't see it was 20K!!    

Bob

[nhp651]

I shudda gone ta specksavers,

no wonder all my boats are bent,

[andyn]

This model cost well over 40k, and this was it's second flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPGFaXqzitc

[Roadrunner]

Now that's why i don't fly model planes ... one way or the other its coming down.