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[ooyah/2]

Boiler testing, at any size, is a standard procedure- and for that matter a standard procedure for any pressure system.


1- Manufacturer test on construction completion, bare shell only, hydraulic test to twice working pressure.


2- Steam test to full working pressure with water gauges and safety valve attached, with full firing rate the safety valves should contain the pressure to a maximum of working pressure+10%.


3- In full size, to satisfy insurers, a boiler test is taken in it's working situation, and water supplies are checked, as are pressure gauge, SV's and water gauges to check for safe operation of all systems- although in model sizes this would occur in the club situation, or prior to an event where club insurance is not applicable.


4- For consecutive tests a hydro test to 1.5 x working pressure is standard across industry- as well as now being standard for clubs wanting to hydro test a boiler for insurance purposes, and would be done before step 3.


5- After consecutive hydro tests steps 2 and 3 are repeated each time.


UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD A BOILER EVER BE SUBJECTED TO 1.5 X WORKING STEAM PRESSURE UNDER STEAM, THIS WOULD REQUIRE MANIPULATING THE SAFETY VALVES TO MALFUNCTION PURPOSEFULLY, AND IN SETTING THEM LOWER BACK TO WORKING PRESSURE YOU HAVE VOIDED YOUR TEST CONDITIONS.


Any test equal to or above working pressure are done using hydraulic testing, and steam testing never occurs at more than WP+10%.


Jerry will be covered at Coniston, more than adequately, by his house insurers. Upon satisfactorily proving his plant is safe (step 3) then the organisers are happy that the plant is safe, operated competently and already have proof of insurance.


Greg

Greg,
The  test code for small boilers  rule 14.6 clearly states that a steam test of 1.5 X wP should be carried out after the first Hydraulic test.
The only way that I can see to carry this out is,

a.-- by plugging the S.V. bush and firing the boiler to 1.5 x wP and as a Hydraulic has been done to 2 x wP  it is quite safe.
b-- to alter the owners S.V. to blow at the 1,5 x wP and reset after the test.
c-- Now do a steam test with the reset S.V. to +10% to which the certificate is issued and will be repeated annually.

It's true that if the S.V. is altered by the owner after the certification invalidates the test and the insurance cover.
However if you read rule 11.9 which covers the removal of a S.V. for cleaning and is reported back to the inspector he " may " wish to conduct a repeat steam test.

In your statement here which is quite adamant that a boiler should " never " be subjected to a steam test of 1.5 x wP which I see as contradicting the Test code  which has been made and used for years  with continuous updating by 8 - organizations, (see Introduction page 1-  rule 1.2 ) ,could you have perhaps miss read the code.
 If not can you please direct me to the code for " Model Boilers " that confirms your statement as I can't find it in the code.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD A BOILER EVER BE SUBJECTED TO 1.5 X WORKING STEAM PRESSURE UNDER STEAM, THIS WOULD REQUIRE MANIPULATING THE SAFETY VALVES TO MALFUNCTION PURPOSEFULLY, AND IN SETTING THEM LOWER BACK TO WORKING PRESSURE YOU HAVE VOIDED YOUR TEST CONDITIONS.
 

George.

[Circlip]

I would imagine anyone setting themselves up to test a boiler to the regs, would have suitable equipment to ensure all parts of the regs. can be adhered to? Setting a safety valve is not a product of the black arts or needs the supervision of Professor Snape, not that the great unwashed should attempt it without setting gear.
 
  A TESTER should be able to satisfy ALL requirements of the rules in complete safety.
 
  Regards  Ian.

[AlexC]

Gentlemen,

As a boiler maker for many years I can assure you that whichever code you read/ adopt/follow, be it the original Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999, Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000 or this latest edition of The examination and Testing of Miniature Steam Boilers (v12a)
 
The Steam Accumulation Test is always specified as being performed at Normal Working Pressure with an allowance of 10% rise in pressure above the set pressure of the safety valve… i.e. Safe working pressure PL… (This should have been previously calibrated and set as a separate exercise).

Section 3.5 states… the safety valve should be set to open AT or BELOW the working pressure (Pw)

Regardless of boiler size (as covered by this code)…

The Accumulation test (Steam Test) should be carried out in accordance with section 11 of the code being discussed.

There appears to be some confusion with the wording in section 14.6, however the reference to the first hydro test (1.5 x Pw) is actually the same one specified in section 14.3… it does NOT mean the STEAM TEST which should never be at any higher pressure than PL (PW +10%). As per section 11.

For the 1.5 x PW hydro test (with all fittings attached) there is provision to remove the Pressure gauge if it has insufficient range… the same applies to the Safety Valve, since this has been previously calibrated and set… which can either be removed and replaced with a blanking plate/plug or it can be clamped shut… it should never be reset to 1.5 x Pw just to meet the 1.5 x Pw test pressure.

When we perform the boiler testing on the VIC 32 puffer we are bound by the
Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000, just as Greg is with GONDOLA and when it is required to perform the 1.5x Pw Hydro Test, it is necessary to clamp the safety valve in order for this to happen. Removal is not necessary and Adjustment to the higher pressure is not valid (it is not designed for that pressure (this could also be the case for many model safety valves)).
The 1.5x Pw Hydro Test and the subsequent Steam accumulation test are both carried out with the VIC 32 afloat.

It was me that posted the New Regs on the other site and it has stirred up quite a hornets nest.

As for Insurance… I think it would be wise to carefully study the SMALL PRINT where this is supposedly covered by Home Insurance… I think you will find that there are conditions applied (but not necessarily obvious) that some form of written document stating safety compliance is required should it be necessary to make a valid claim.
 
I would find it hard to believe any Insurance company would be willing to cover any NON-Certified Steam BOILER.
 
I hope this helps calm the waters somewhat.
 
Best Regards.
 
AlexC AKA Sandcam or SandyC

[ooyah/2]

Gentlemen,

As a boiler maker for many years I can assure you that whichever code you read/ adopt/follow, be it the original Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999, Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000 or this latest edition of The examination and Testing of Miniature Steam Boilers (v12a)
 
The Steam Accumulation Test is always specified as being performed at Normal Working Pressure with an allowance of 10% rise in pressure above the set pressure of the safety valve… i.e. Safe working pressure PL… (This should have been previously calibrated and set as a separate exercise).

Section 3.5 states… the safety valve should be set to open AT or BELOW the working pressure (Pw)

Regardless of boiler size (as covered by this code)…

The Accumulation test (Steam Test) should be carried out in accordance with section 11 of the code being discussed.

There appears to be some confusion with the wording in section 14.6, however the reference to the first hydro test (1.5 x Pw) is actually the same one specified in section 14.3… it does NOT mean the STEAM TEST which should never be at any higher pressure than PL (PW +10%). As per section 11.

For the 1.5 x PW hydro test (with all fittings attached) there is provision to remove the Pressure gauge if it has insufficient range… the same applies to the Safety Valve, since this has been previously calibrated and set… which can either be removed and replaced with a blanking plate/plug or it can be clamped shut… it should never be reset to 1.5 x Pw just to meet the 1.5 x Pw test pressure.

When we perform the boiler testing on the VIC 32 puffer we are bound by the
Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000, just as Greg is with GONDOLA and when it is required to perform the 1.5x Pw Hydro Test, it is necessary to clamp the safety valve in order for this to happen. Removal is not necessary and Adjustment to the higher pressure is not valid (it is not designed for that pressure (this could also be the case for many model safety valves)).
The 1.5x Pw Hydro Test and the subsequent Steam accumulation test are both carried out with the VIC 32 afloat.

It was me that posted the New Regs on the other site and it has stirred up quite a hornets nest.

As for Insurance… I think it would be wise to carefully study the SMALL PRINT where this is supposedly covered by Home Insurance… I think you will find that there are conditions applied (but not necessarily obvious) that some form of written document stating safety compliance is required should it be necessary to make a valid claim.
 
I would find it hard to believe any Insurance company would be willing to cover any NON-Certified Steam BOILER.
 
I hope this helps calm the waters somewhat.
 
Best Regards.
 
AlexC AKA Sandcam or SandyC

 Hi Sandy,
 Thanks for the post , I now stand corrected in altering the S.V. to reach 1.5 x wP and in future will blank of the S.V. bush to get the required 1.5 x wP test as stated in my post as (a)
 So to get my mind clear on the subject and considering Gregs claim that under no circumstances should a boiler be subjected to 1.5 x wP working steam pressure, to perform the steam test on a boiler after the first Hydraulic test it must be raised to 1.5 x wP and then re- tested with the pre- set S.V. to the designed wP + 10%
 
 George.

Altered text to outside of quotes.  ken

[ooyah/2]

Sandy,
I should have asked , am I correct in thinking that he 1.5 x wP steam test is for a new boiler only and any other presented without a test certificate.
George.

[Jerry C]

Alec C, George, Greg Et Al. I think we're getting there. If it's possible to write it all down more clearly then I'll give it a try.

1) build a boiler.
2) plug all openings except filler/safety valve.
3) completely fill boiler with water excluding all air.
4) attach primed pump fitted with accurate pressure gauge to filler/safety valve hole.
5) with pump, raise pressure in boiler in 10 psi stages looking for leaks, weeps and distortion until pressure is 2xPw.

6) if all ok, remove pressure, remove pump and drain boiler.
7) fit sight glass, pressure gauge (to be able to read up to 1.5xPw),clack valve, manifold(with unused holes plugged), steam outlet valve(shut) and if used, the whistle valve.
refill boiler, expelling all air, bleed whistle valve.
9) re attach primed pump.
10) with pump, raise pressure in 10 psi stages to 1.5xPw watching for weeps and leaks in fittings and observe correct values on boiler pressure gauge.
11) if all ok release pressure and drain boiler to operating level.
12) refit safety valve and raise steam on full gas pressure until safety valve lifts at Pw.
13) continue steaming and observe gauge until pressure stabilises at or below Pw + 10%.
14) if no leaks and pressure correct then test complete.

How's that? Me head hurts now!
Jerry.

[AlexC]

Hi George,
 

 So to get my mind clear on the subject and considering Gregs claim that under no circumstances should a boiler be subjected to 1.5 x wP working steam pressure, to perform the steam test on a boiler after the first Hydraulic test it must be raised to 1.5 x wP and then re- tested with the pre- set S.V. to the designed wP   10%

Not quite right George... The first Hydro test is performed at 2 x PW and is a once off test. (other than if a repair, or modification, dictates it being repeated**)
 
The second (or any subsequent) hydro test (if required) is performed at 1.5 x Pw with all fittings attached (other than the Pressure gauge and/or safety valve if they are not set/suitable for the test pressure).
 
For boilers of 3 bar litre or less then this 1st 1.5 x PW hydro test does not need to be repeated and both this test and the previous 2 x Pw hydro test are valid for the life of the boiler.(again, the only exception would be if a repair, or modification, made it necessary**)
 
The Steam Accumulation test is then performed at Pw under full burner conditions.
The allowance is Pw  10% (this being PL) with the safety blowing.
 
There is no 1.5 x Pw steam test called for (at any stage of a boilers life) in any of the regulations since this would be a violation of section 11.8 (Pressure Limit PL)
 
The confusion is caused by the wording in section 14.6 where the bracketed (1.5x Pw) actually refers to the first (or subsequent) hydro test as per section 14.3... Not the STEAM TEST.
 
The only ANNUAL repeat test required for a boiler of 3Bar/Litres or less is the Steam test.
Which must be performed at MAX 14 months intervals.
 
 
** any repair or modification made to the boiler shell, or change to the setting of the safety valve and/or pressure gauge, must be reported to the Tester. It is then his decision which determines if the Hydro test/s need to be re done).
 
If such changes are not notified then the user is in breech of the code and his current certificates would be void... as would be his insurance, or any claim made under the insurance policy in such a case. 
 
 
I hope that makes it a bit more clear George.
 
Best regards.
 
Sandy.
 
EDIT... Jerry has got it correct... the only thing to remember though is that the testing must be performed by a authorised TESTER who will then issue the necessary certificates on satisfactory completion. Self testing is not legal for certification purposes, although you can perform them for your own satisfation prior to an Authorised test.
 

[ooyah/2]

Hi George,
 
Not quite right George... The first Hydro test is performed at 2 x PW and is a once off test. (other than if a repair, or modification, dictates it being repeated**)
 
The second (or any subsequent) hydro test (if required) is performed at 1.5 x Pw with all fittings attached (other than the Pressure gauge and/or safety valve if they are not set/suitable for the test pressure).
 
For boilers of 3 bar litre or less then this 1st 1.5 x PW hydro test does not need to be repeated and both this test and the previous 2 x Pw hydro test are valid for the life of the boiler.(again, the only exception would be if a repair, or modification, made it necessary**)
 
The Steam Accumulation test is then performed at Pw under full burner conditions.
The allowance is Pw  10% (this being PL) with the safety blowing.
 
There is no 1.5 x Pw steam test called for (at any stage of a boilers life) in any of the regulations since this would be a violation of section 11.8 (Pressure Limit PL)
 
The confusion is caused by the wording in section 14.6 where the bracketed (1.5x Pw) actually refers to the first (or subsequent) hydro test as per section 14.3... Not the STEAM TEST.
 
The only ANNUAL repeat test required for a boiler of 3Bar/Litres or less is the Steam test.
Which must be performed at MAX 14 months intervals.
 
 
** any repair or modification made to the boiler shell, or change to the setting of the safety valve and/or pressure gauge, must be reported to the Tester. It is then his decision which determines if the Hydro test/s need to be re done).
 
If such changes are not notified then the user is in breech of the code and his current certificates would be void... as would be his insurance, or any claim made under the insurance policy in such a case. 
 
 
I hope that makes it a bit more clear George.
 
Best regards.
 
Sandy.
 
EDIT... Jerry has got it correct... the only thing to remember though is that the testing must be performed by a authorised TESTER who will then issue the necessary certificates on satisfactory completion. Self testing is not legal for certification purposes, although you can perform them for your own satisfation prior to an Authorised test.

Alex,
Thanks for your prompt reply, I have always tested boilers to the current Regs and you are right in saying that the confusion occurred at 14.6 and is now clear in my mind.
As I have just tested a new boiler to work at 50 p.s.i. and used what I thought was correct, (1.5 x wP  ) to 75 p.s.i. by blanking off the S.V. boss and there were no steam leaks or bowing of the shell so all is well.,  I shall however in future use the  use the Regs as described.

To Greg I acknowledge that you are correct in your statement on steam test.

George.

[Circlip]

Bout time the "Learned" bodies that generate the codes stopped laying the rules down which lead to an ambiguous understanding by continually smothering everything in legal bulls**t.
 
  For a number of decades, Muddle Ingineers did their own thing and tested the fruits of their labours to a set of rules which mainly covered Toy Locos. If the basic rules were applied to the manufacture of a small boiler, either copying a know design or even "rolling ones own" after following the design requirements of steam principles reinforced by people like Westbury and Harris, then everything in the garden was luverly.
 
  Thanks to the trans Atlantic adoption of "Litigation with everything", the Elfins and other Do Gooders had their fingers in the pie and recognised just how dangerous some, operating mobile pressure cookers, could wreak havoc amongst an unknowing public and should therefore be curbed from enjoying themselves without obeying tomes of officialdom written in the main by those who previously applied common sense, rote the rules down and then gave them to someone to translate into LEGAL SPEAK.
 
 If two who have been involved with the safe construction and operation of model boilers for many years can have a different understanding of the SAME requirement, then the codes should be untangled into PLAIN ENGLISH. While many who use commercial equipment may be issued with a test cert, there is no excuse for not knowing how the boiler has been tested to obtain the said piece of bumph. I'm not saying that the owner should know all the theoretical design figures for it, You don't need a degree in thermo dynamics to know your car has failed its test due to emissions or Advanced Maffs to know their aint enough thickness of rubber on the skins, but there is no excuse for not knowing the reasons for it and how they are obtained.
 
  Regards  Ian.
 
 As an addition, my own miss interpretation of 14.1 would leave me to believe that if I chose to fit a pressure gauge to a Mamod (which has a safety valve) then it falls into a test section when previously exempt.

[Jerry C]

Well said Ian. So good to see that us old steamers can have a discussion without getting steamed up. Strange how a missing comma or a small word can cause so much confusion.
George, have a nice meeting tomorrow. I hope the weather stays fine for you.
Jerry.

[AlexC]

 
 
George, Ian, Jerry, et al...
 
I am pleased to have been of some help and glad we got this sorted so that WE are all singing from the same song sheet.
 
As is often the case with such documents (be they Legislation or codes of practice), a simple thing like a missing comma, or word, can make decoding things somewhat confussing.
 
I do wonder sometimes, who proof reads such documents and supposedly corrects such errors prior to publication... clearly they miss the odd one or two , which leads to such confusion.
 
Keep happy and enjoy your boating.
 
Best regards.
 
AlexC
 
 

[ooyah/2]

Well said Ian. So good to see that us old steamers can have a discussion without getting steamed up. Strange how a missing comma or a small word can cause so much confusion.
George, have a nice meeting tomorrow. I hope the weather stays fine for you.
Jerry.

Hi Jerry,
Yes some times we agree and other times we don't so sometimes we have to agree to disagree with no need to shout at each other.

It's all Alex Cambell's fault for publishing the link to the New Regs, if we didn't know about them we could have lived in ignorant bliss. ( only kidding Alex. )

On reading Ians post with reference to Westbury and Harris it made me wonder why I was so sure that Clause 14.3 refered to 1.5 x wP as a steam test so I decided to look up Harris's book on boilers and testing and low and behold way back in 1967 K.N.Harris quotes that the steam test should be no more than 25% of the boilers wP and to acheive that the safety valve was adjusted and then returned to it's original setting. ( pages 126-127-128 ) you will remember them Ian way back then and how simple and efficient it all seams.
As things stand and we want insurance we must stick to those who must be obeyed.

Jerry I hope that the weather is a bit better for my clubs First Show of the year, today has been very cold and windy so hopefully it will be a bit better tomorrow.
.
I shall not be there as I am otherwise engaged on a Sunday, I think round about Wednesday the outcome of the show will be on the club web site it will be worth a look as there are some more developments in our modeling achievements

Good night and God bless..

George.

[derekwarner]

Thanks to all for the new Boiler Regulations clarification's....
Will someone communicate with the authors of the original recommendations commencing in January 2013 & request a revised set of recommendations be produced?.....
The reason I ask is the original December 2012 .docs may already reside here in Australia.....& the provision of the revisions would eliminate the nausea of going down the same questioning path.....Derek
 

[AlexC]

Hi Guy's,
 
Not sure what is going on with the forum... I posted a reply at 9:46PM last night and it went missing.
The Index of new posts (front page of the forum)registered that a new post had been added to the thread at that time and under my user name, however, the content of the post was not showing... all very strange!!
 
Anyway... I am pleased my input was of some help in restoring equilibrium and that we are now all singing from the same song sheet.
 

On reading Ians post with reference to Westbury and Harris it made me wonder why I was so sure that Clause 14.3 refered to 1.5 x wP as a steam test so I decided to look up Harris's book on boilers and testing and low and behold way back in 1967 K.N.Harris quotes that the steam test should be no more than 25% of the boilers wP and to acheive that the safety valve was adjusted and then returned to it's original setting. ( pages 126-127-128 ) you will remember them Ian way back then and how simple and efficient it all seams.

 
George, Ian and Jerry... I have just looked up my copy of Harris (which may be a later edition than yours) and my copy states...
 
on page 126... " with a steam test, a pressure of 25%, in excess of working pressure is sufficient"
 
and on page 128 it does indeed say that "the safety valve/s will either have to be set temporarily to blow of at the required higher pressure, or removed and their sockets temporarily plugged".
 
So I can see where this would lead to confusion with regard to the wording in the latest regs. section 14.6.
 
Unfortunately, Harris's method fails to address the purpose of the ACCUMULATION TEST in that it does not prove that the safety valve is capable of releasing all excess steam without the pressure rising more than 25% (our latest testing is 10%) above working pressure when fired at maximum. It merely proves that the safety valve/s open at Pw + 25%.

It would also not comply with section 3.5 and section 11 of the latest regs.

The problem is/was that, at that time in history, no real statutory regulations existed and most countries, clubs, authorities (local or otherwise) made there own rules up.
It was not really until the Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999 were published that any form of common rule applied.( but even these were open to interpretation)
 
What this does highlight though is the need for all of us to follow the LATEST REGULATIONS, for the particular country we live in, whether we agree with them or not.
It certainly does not help us much though, when the regulations are ambiguous as written.
 
Derek: -
 
I have already been in touch with the publishers regarding this and await some sort of response. Not holding my breath though
 
Ok then, Keep happy and enjoy your steam models.
 
Best regards,
 
AlexC. (sandy)
 
 

[ooyah/2]

Hi Alex,

Yes the Regs were are thing that just were not in existence when Harris published his book , however it has been a great source of reference on many occasions, both his boiler book and engine book and still books to have in your library.

Thanks for taking the time to explain where I went wrong, how much nicer it is when you take the time to explain rather being told point blank that you are wrong.

It's good to know that you are lurking in the back ground ready to keep us correct.

Regards
George.

[Geoff]

I looked into this some time ago and made some notes which I summarise below. Is my understanding correct as regards the Cheddar Pufin boilers? Sorry it's long but just truying to get a laymans perspective.
 
Cheers
 
G
 
New rules have been introduced in 2006/2007 for the testing of model steam boilers. From the web it appears that the new regulations apply only to those boilers in the 500 to 1100 bar litre capacity but also that those below 1.5 bar litres are exempt. Boiler testing needs to be done every 14 months that in practice equates to annually.

Bar litre capacity is calculated by taking the total water capacity (measured in litres) x working pressure (measured in bars) with 1 bar equating to 14.50 pounds per square inch.

For example a boiler with a 1 litre capacity and designed to operate at 3 bar works out at 1 litre x 3 bar = 3 bar litre capacity so the new pressure regulations will apply. This should mean that a boiler with less than 500 cc capacity will fall below the new regulations.

There are two elements, pressure testing & steam testing which are different within the new regulations. From what I have seen on the web the gist is that the new regulations apply to boilers with a capacity in excess of 1.5 bar litres and do not apply to those boilers with measurements below this but this seems in conflict with the higher numbers frequently shown, 500 – 1100 bar litres?

The pressure test is relatively simple in that a hydraulic test is carried out on a new boiler to two times its working pressure (working pressure is typically the pressure when the safety valve blows) and one and a half times working pressure on an old boiler. If I recall correctly this is done twice, the first time for 10mins then for 20mins and any leakage or drop in pressure will constitute failure.

For steam testing this appears to be more complicated as a number of features need to be tested:

1)      Boiler feed water arrangements and there must be two – a hand pump and an engine powered pump will suffice, as would two water injectors.
2)      Pressure gauge
3)      Water gauge including blow down arrangements
4)      Safety valve

Again my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the steam testing also applies to boilers with a 500-1100 bar litre capacity so once again does not apply to small boilers as otherwise all small boilers will automatically fail as they don’t have two water supplies. Most don’t have any way to replenish the water at all and rely on the initial capacity.

This all appears to be enshrined in European Law which also prohibit, and makes illegal, local regulations being in force which conflicts with the European Law. The effect of this would appear to prohibit clubs from refusing someone without a pressure certificate from sailing provided their boiler is below 1.5 bar litres capacity.

The only reference I have found to small boilers indicates that they should be physically inspected annually and the safety valve checked to see it works.

So what does this mean in practice for the small-scale sailing enthusiast?

Take a mark one Cheddar Models Puffin boiler. According to Chedder’s literature the capacity is just over a third of a litre, say 0.33. So we get 0.33 x the working pressure which is 3 bars = 0.9 so a Puffin boiler would appear to be well below the legal limit for testing.

What about the Puffin mark two boiler. Cheddar say the water capacity is 40% higher so we would get 0.33 x 1.40% = 0.462 x 3bar = 1.386 so would again appear to be below the limit.

Gas tanks seem to be subject to different regulations and I have not located any clear reference to this at this time but there appears to be a size limit that applies as well.




 

[TAG]

My understanding of the position with gas tanks from when I attended a testing seminar on boiler testing was as follows:
They come under "The Portable Gas Container Regulations" which come under The Department of Transport who in November 2010 were still reviewing matters.
Anyone know what the present position is other than insurance companies quoting a maximum total capacity of 250 millilitres?
It is interesting to note that the "Pressure Vessel Regulations" come under The Department of Business, Innovation and Skills.
I wonder if each department speaks unto the other!
Regards
Tim