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Author Topic: Costa Concordia  (Read 95741 times)

Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2012, 05:59:58 PM »


 It's not looking good for captain Francesco Schettino
  {:-{

  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16599655
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2012, 06:06:25 PM »

Davie....I'm sure you mean well, but gathering/collecting both non-seafaring passengers and non-seafaring crew members together when they number in their thousands is by any standards a long process. Has to be. "Drills" always assume that all LSA (Life Saving Apparatus) is available on both sides of the ship. When a large vessel heels over and only 50% of the LSA is available then what do you do with the 50% of the disenfrachised lot? No matter how well educated, physically fit and so on your'e going to have to expect a degree of uncontrolled panic. These people were just going on a holiday, not a survival course.
All this comes to mind when I recall the "drill" we did on "Sir Bedivere" within the confines of Portland Harbour. 90 "civilian" volunteer passengers and a well trained crew to look after them. When we heeled the ship to 15* the eruption of panic amongst the "passengers" was really quite frightening...even though there was no danger whatsoever. Dealing with 3,000 passengers with only a minimally trained crew would be an impossibility.
My rather stupid and impractical answers to your statement would include having personal chaperones for each passenger, each passenger having to take a "survival at sea" course before being allowed to board and no individual who was considered to be "infirm", "overweight" or otherwise physically hampered would be allowed passage. Stupid idea...but have you got any better ones? I imagine not. And don't keep quoting the Daily Mail...they are only reporting waht all the other papers are saying. BY.

The 30 minute evacuation SOLAS requirement is only for getting into the boats and getting them away after the muster , it seems to be the time to get people to their muster stations that is the problem deadwood , they had a former cruise ship master on the news last night discussing it

Bryan I think the major problem is that the current sea going passengers on these ships are just not educated enough to accept that something like this can happen , some seem to think that these modern boats can't sink ( shades of Titanic in the 100th year since the disaster... ).

The problem I have is that once you have 2000+ non-seafarers as passengers on a ship like this is that it only takes a small number to panic and you get mass hysteria leading to people running around like headless chickens pushing people out of the way causing injuries and slowing down the movement of people from their cabins or the communal areas to the muster stations. Perhaps the use of inflatable rafts instead of just using boats would speed up the safe evacuation from a ship like this but the fact that the passengers hadn't had a muster drill before the incident happened must see a change to SOLAS regs making it compulsory that everyone in the crew and passengers go through a drill before the ship leaves port , you wouldn't expect an air steward to give you the emergency procedures just before you landed afterall.

When I worked for the Marine Lab we always did lifeboat drill on the morning we sailed , before we left the quay , including putting on a full survival suit and lifejacket. We also had to go to our boat deck where we still had 2 lifeboats along with 6 liferafts. For people that had not been aboard before they were then shown around the lifeboat davits to have a rudimentary understanding of how they worked and how to release the boat ( all davits had the full instructions attached ). We also did a full survival suit and lifejackt drill before sailing after our half landings ( always did 10 or 11 days work then 1 day ashore either in Denmark , Norway , Lerwick , Stornoway or Dublin/Cork ) , whether or not all of this was SOLAS regs or not the MN Captain's we had aboard made sure this was done along with the crew doing full fire fighting drill using Breathing Apparatus sets at least every trip which came in handy when the centre engine ( we had 3 main engines as we were diesel electric ) went on fire one day off Montrose and we had to evacuate up through the A-frame aft due to smoke from the engineroom

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Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2012, 08:09:09 PM »

This ship was working on round trip cruise then there is no "start point" with all passagers coming and "end point" for disembarking. That means for exemple the French passagers where at the end of the cruise after six days aboard the boat will come to Marseille the day before but for the italian passagers , after a pot call at Civitavecchia it was the first day aboard, even the first night and they didn't received safety procedures (no instruction for life jacket, life boat ...)  they also had no knowledge of the ship itself

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davidsg1a

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2012, 08:21:09 PM »

Brian young might know more than me about this, I think on these ships they have do to a drill with in 24 hours of boarding.

david
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2012, 08:24:28 PM »

Thats right David 24 hours but this happened 2 hours after sailing so those that embarked in Italy had no idea of the ships layout , where their muster stations were or what to do in an emergency which is why I'd like to see the regulations changed to make it compulsory to have a boat drill before sailing for the new passengers
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Davie Tait,
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The long Build

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2012, 08:28:20 PM »

Thats right David 24 hours but this happened 2 hours after sailing so those that embarked in Italy had no idea of the ships layout , where their muster stations were or what to do in an emergency which is why I'd like to see the regulations changed to make it compulsory to have a boat drill before sailing for the new passengers

Is this sort of general information not provided on the back of the door of each Cabin..
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Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2012, 08:54:45 PM »

Yes of course : on the back door of your cabin. What you do when ship departing (looking outside) then it was time for dinner (going to restaurant)

A friend of me was at Marseille on Friday and was at the hotel waiting to board this ship the day after... Then she watched TV and knew that her journey on cruise ship Costa Concordia was cancelled for her ... Then she was happy, no cruise but alived !
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bobk

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2012, 09:01:01 PM »

Not the same thing, but when we started our Nile cruise in November the Steward who showed us to our cabin explained the emergency procedures and where our life jackets were stowed.  There was also large safety procedures poster on the inside of the cabin door.  I always read these, the same as the emergency cards on aircraft, just in case.  Strange how most people on aircraft seem to ignore the safety demo, but at least you always get the demo before you take off.
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roycv

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2012, 09:22:29 PM »

Hi all, Very interesting albeit tragic.
Can the more enlightened help me here.  I see from the specification of the ship that she has 6 very large diesels (Wartzilla) engines and so will she have azipods for propulsion?  I can't seem to nail this one for certain on the Internet.

I understand how the system works thanks to Bunkerbarge helping me with an article I wrote on the Queen Victoria for Model Boats magazine.

I read an article from Captain La Fauci (longest serving Carnival Lines Captain) that Carnival were not building any more azipod cruise ships, I believe that the Queen Victoria was the next ship to be built after Costa...and that has azipods.

If so then all references to rudders can be discounted as they are not needed.

These units do stick out or down rather a lot! so how would you beach a ship with azipods?  It can't possibly slide and ground onto a beach.

regards to all, Roy
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »

I have seen a reference to the Costa Concordia being conventionally propelled with shafts and props with electric motors.

It does rather look as if the collision with the rocks immediately flooded the main engine room following which the emergency generators situated higher in the ship kicked in.

No doubt all will become clear in due course, and quite quickly too as the cruise industry will be desperate to know whether other ships could be vulnerable.

Colin
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pettyofficernick

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2012, 01:25:03 PM »

In court this morning, the Captain claimed that he 'accidentally' fell into the lifeboat in which he made good his escape from the stricken ship. Just who is he trying to kid???? Sky News, 11:30 bulletin.
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Bryan Young

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2012, 01:28:04 PM »

Colin...ALL ships are "vulnerable", but most ships (particularly passenger ships) don't have Captains who like "rock hopping".
Just a thought...I've been pondering some possible reasons why the ship should have lain down on her port side when all the visible damage is on the stbd side. My conclusion (possibly totally wrong!) is that eventually more major damage will be found on the port side. The "how" part of that theory may well come up with some pretty bizzare conclusions! Like being struck twice? Food for thought though. BY.
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carlmt

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2012, 01:33:35 PM »

From what I can deduce from all the photographs I have seen (and this is ONLY my theory), is that she initially struck rocks on her port side, holing the ship and taking on water.  The captain then decided to drive her onto the shore or into shallower waters for her to settle on an even keel - but actually drove her onto more rocks on her starboard side causing more damage in the process. She certainly settled, but on a rocky shore, and one photo shows her lying with her starboard structure resting on rocks, which is why I think she hasnt keeled over 90deg like the Herald did on a flatter sea-bed.

Just my deduction...........
Carl

Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2012, 02:21:02 PM »

Quote
Colin...ALL ships are "vulnerable",

Sorry Bryan, I didn't express myself clearly. As you say, anything that goes to sea is vulnerable to some extent. What I meant was that assumptions made about the stability of modern cruise ships might turn out to be incorrect which would increase the assumed risk factor. However I find it difficult to believe that the designers would have made errors on that sort of scale. More likely that the sheer extent of the damage was the reason. A pretty large area of the amidships must have flooded rapidly and extensively and possibly beyond the anticipated design limits for absorbing damage whilst retaining stability. It's certainly going to be interesting to see what the truth is when it finally emerges. I don't think we're anywhere near that stage yet.

I'm no seamam but I thought the last thing you should do with a ship is to bring it into proximity of any potential underwater hazards.

Colin
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #114 on: January 18, 2012, 02:52:23 PM »


I'm really surprised to see the stabiliser, seemingly, completely undamaged.


http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16151520
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #115 on: January 18, 2012, 02:56:44 PM »

The ship must have been turning at the time, all very mysterious.

Colin
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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2012, 03:57:01 PM »

.... What I meant was that assumptions made about the stability of modern cruise ships might turn out to be incorrect which would increase the assumed risk factor. However I find it difficult to believe that the designers would have made errors on that sort of scale......

This reference may be of interest - HT to EuroReferendum, who are discussing the issue with reference to international regulations...  http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=SOLAS+2009+%E2%80%93+Raising+the+Alarm&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dft.gov.uk%2Fmca%2Fa11._stab_2007_solas_2009_-_raising_the_alarm.doc&ei=8eEWT7-IJ4ik8gOozIXaAg&usg=AFQjCNHdfNqJ7_Nl3J1IjgW1uUmqtKsxdg





I'm really surprised to see the stabiliser, seemingly, completely undamaged.


I suspect the stabs weren't out when doing the close pass, and got put out as the ship went into land, in an effort to stop it heeling so much. I'm pretty sure that the starboard stabiliser has a fair bit of damage....
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2012, 04:06:42 PM »

Stabiliser probably not out when the ship hit the rock and its set to max rise on the port side so starboard would be max down meaning if they they stuck due to hydraulic failure then forward momentum of the ship would make her life to starboard meaning its more likely that she just settled far enough over to allow water into the starboard side through access doors or port holes and sunk that way.

The man who organised the escape was an off duty Captain of one of the sister ships and he is absolutely scathing about the coward that abandoned his passengers and crew to save his own backside

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022902/Costa-Concordia-captains-actions-disgraceful-says-cruise-ships-reluctant-hero.html
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Davie Tait,
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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2012, 07:02:54 PM »

Blame culture whipped up by the media - Yet again. All down to ONE person.

 The parent company knew this was going on but didn't send a "Memo" out to stop it, why should they, in "Normal" operations, free advertising to anyone looking from the shore.

 The Captain is obviously of dubious character, BUT, they entrusted him with the flagship cruise liner????

 The Coastguard shouts and carries on from a warm office 50 miles away from the scene?

 Some numpty shows a comparison to the "Hudson river" event? Pilot making sure everyone is off the A/C? 190 passengers as opposed to 4000.

 Practice all you like, but if it happens for real, who can tell what they would do.

 Hindsight is a great teacher, pity all the armchair Admirals and Media parasites don't remember this.

  Regards  Ian.
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #119 on: January 18, 2012, 08:03:22 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16620807

Italian captain 'turned too late'

The captain of the cruise ship that capsized on Friday, killing at least 11 people, has admitted making a navigation mistake, Italian media say.

Captain Francesco Schettino told investigators he had "ordered the turn too late" as the luxury ship sailed close to an island, according to a leaked interrogation transcript.

The Costa Concordia ran aground with about 4,200 people on board.

More than 20 are still missing but the search for survivors has been halted.
Continue reading the main story
Start Quote

    You declared abandon ship, now I give orders. Go aboard. Is it clear?

Gregorio de Falco Livorno Port Authority

    Transcript: Coastguard call

According to the leaked transcript quoted by Italian media, Capt Schettino said the route of the Costa Concordia on the first day of its Mediterranean cruise had been decided as it left the port of Civitavecchia, near Rome, on Friday.

The captain reportedly told the investigating judge in the city of Grosseto that he had decided to sail close to Giglio to salute a former captain who had a home on the Tuscan island.

"I was navigating by sight because I knew the depths well and I had done this manoeuvre three or four times," he reportedly said.

"But this time I ordered the turn too late and I ended up in water that was too shallow. I don't know why it happened."
'Saving lives'

The ship's owners, Costa Crociere, said earlier this week that the change of route had not been authorised.

On Tuesday, Capt Schettino's lawyer said his client had told the judge that lives had been saved thanks to the manoeuvre he made after the ship hit rocks.

The captain is under house arrest on suspicion of multiple manslaughter. Prosecutors have also accused him of fleeing the ship before evacuation was complete.

A recording of a call between him and a port official after the crash appears to support this, though Capt Schettino denies the claims.

In the recording, released by the Corriere della Sera newspaper, Livorno Port Authority chief Gregorio De Falco can be heard repeatedly telling the captain to get back on board to help passengers.

"Schettino, maybe you saved yourself from the sea, but I'll make you have trouble for sure. Go aboard," says Mr De Falco.

The captain appears to refuse, replying first that there are rescuers already on board, and then that it is dark and difficult to see.

Coastguards believe he never went back to the ship. He was arrested on the island shortly afterwards.

During the hearing, the captain reportedly said he could not get on board the vessel because it was lying on its side.

Italian media also quote him as telling the judge he had left the ship accidentally after tripping and falling into a rescue craft.

Search suspended

The BBC's Alan Johnston on Giglio island says that if the reports of the captain's answers under questioning are correct, then this amounts to an admission of the most reckless incompetence.

Meanwhile, the first dead victim to be identified was a 38-year-old Hungarian violinist, Sandor Feher.

His body was found in the wreck and identified by his mother, Hungary's foreign ministry said on Wednesday.

The search for survivors has been suspended, with officials saying there is a risk of the Costa Concordia sinking completely in rough seas.

Officials are hoping to begin salvage work soon, including pumping oil off the wreck. There are fears the vessel might slip into deeper water off the Tuscan coast.

A specialist team from a Dutch salvage company is preparing to pump more than 2,300 tonnes of fuel from the ship's 17 tanks.

The firm says this could take several weeks. Experts believe there is little risk of a major fuel leak that would contaminate the scenic area.
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Davie Tait,
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2012, 09:27:37 PM »

Blame culture whipped up by the media - Yet again. All down to ONE person.

 The parent company knew this was going on but didn't send a "Memo" out to stop it, why should they, in "Normal" operations, free advertising to anyone looking from the shore.

 The Captain is obviously of dubious character, BUT, they entrusted him with the flagship cruise liner????

 The Coastguard shouts and carries on from a warm office 50 miles away from the scene?

 Some numpty shows a comparison to the "Hudson river" event? Pilot making sure everyone is off the A/C? 190 passengers as opposed to 4000.

 Practice all you like, but if it happens for real, who can tell what they would do.

 Hindsight is a great teacher, pity all the armchair Admirals and Media parasites don't remember this.

  Regards  Ian.

Now we are getting to the real issues, the owners throwing someone to the wolves to mitigate their loses while covering up their culpaability.

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davidsg1a

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2012, 09:36:55 PM »

Well said ian.  :-))

David
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2012, 10:13:09 PM »

Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.

Colin
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Shipmate60

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2012, 10:44:11 PM »

I have read this thread with interest and researched the news on the unfolding saga.
The Captain of ANY vessel is the owners representative on board the vessel.
The Captains first priority is the safety of the vessel. No-one or company can override this directive.
If you are not strong enough to ensure the safety of the ship over ANY interference perhaps you should no be a Captain in the first place.
Every Officer on board the vessel answers ultimately to the captain.
The same is true for crew through their departmental heads.
In an emergency situation the captain is in overall control, if he is incapacitated the Chief Officer assumes this responsibility down in a set chain of command.
The Captain is charged with the safety of any passengers and crew.
These are the Captains primary functions.
All emergency functions are directed by the Captain on the bridge who co-ordinates the response to the emergency.
It has been reported that another Captain off duty and on board for the ride home assumed overall command.
He is being hailed as a hero in Italy but he states that he was "only doing his duty". Which is correct but was not his ship.
I am sorry to burst the bubble about him being a scapegoat but he is responsible for the ship including passage plans and any forced change of course and of course the safety of the ship and passengers.
He himself admits that he deviated from the passage plan and there was an entry on Facebook that the ship would pass close to the island well before she ran aground.
It was his place to co-ordinate the safe evacuation of the ship not "trip over and fall into a lifeboat"

This is not conjecture but the experience of 32 years at sea as a ships officer up to Chief Engineer.

Bob
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pettyofficernick

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2012, 11:22:24 PM »

Quite agree Bob, the man's not fit to be in command of a peddalo, let alone a cruise liner.
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