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[carlmt]

When we first looked at the idea of using 3D fittings on our ferry kits, it was quickly realised that home printers were just not going to cut the mustard - too coarse and unable to print to a fine enough resolution at 1:96....not to mention the speed (or lack of) to produce the parts.
 
We need something in the region of 280 fittings for each Free Enterprise V kit, and a home printer just wouldn't cope.  Thank goodness for Shapeways with their multi-million pound machines and speed of manufacture!!!
 
However, the downside has been two-fold.  One : The parts can be quite expensive compared to resin cast fittings and Two : The parts have to paid for in Euros and, with the recent devaluation of the Pound, we have found that our costs here have increased by some 25 to 35%.  Therefore, to try to bring the costs back down, we have been taking a very close look at how these fittings are manufactured and to get them at the most cost-effective price.
 
To that end, we have found that it would save us some £25 per kit to actually group ALL the fittings into one, printable, model and end up with a 'cube' of 3D printed parts - one cube per kit.  Another advantage of this is that there should be no missing parts in the kit box!!!!
If all the fittings for this kit were printed in the method we have been using, the price per kit came close to £160.  With this new method, the price has come down to circa £125.  A considerable saving and it brings the costs back closer to our original costings for the kit when we first started this venture.
 
So, to save money on Shapeways 3D printed fittings, group as many parts as you might need into as small a cube as you can - you pay not only for the volume of plastic used but also the volume your parts take up in the machine 
 

 

 

 
BTW this cube measures just 4" x 3" x 2.5"

[Subculture]

Have you looked at these guys for printing? Only SLS available, but great machines.

https://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/pricing-2016/

[carlmt]

Unfortunately, we tried these guys in the very beginning a couple of years ago but the parts came back quite poorly printed.  Anything circular, like a bollard, was actually printed oval - and quite noticeably so.
 
I am quite willing to try again with them, but not at over £100 a try.  I think I need to talk to them................

[Subculture]

That sounds bad. Did you question them over the print? I wouldn't have accepted it if you're sure the CAD submitted was good.

[carlmt]

To be honest, no we didn't.  3D printing was a whole new ball-game to us then and we hadn't heard of Shapeways at the time.

3D-Print UK may well have got better - and as I said, I think we will need to speak with them very soon, but at the time there were not very many parts required and we were just testing the idea of 3D printed fittings.  Other than costs, we are very happy with the Shapeways products, but we do think we need to start looking at something UK based going forward.

[Bob K]

I think this is a brilliant idea. Not only reduces costs, passed onto to the model maker, but also ensures a complete set of parts.  My only concern is how we extract all those delicate part from the cube without breaking them.  This is already on problem on small assemblies such as guns with mountings.

[carlmt]

Hi Bob

All our fittings are now produced in a nylon type of plastic and they are very strong.  I would defy anyone to break them with their fingers.

To remove the parts from the carrier, you would use a fine pair of side cutters.  We would suggest that, when the modeller receives the kit, one of the first things they do is to remove the parts from the carrier, check them off against the parts list in the instruction book and then put them into individual yoghurt pots or jam jars with lids (actually, Lurpak butter dishes are great for this sort of thing as they have lids and are stackable).

[Martin (Admin)]

Have you had the first proof prints yet Carlos?

[Colin Bishop]

Amazing stuff Carl. Do you draw the vrious componenets separately and then transfer them to the supporting frame? Does the software take care of potential conflicts and help with making the best fit?

The impression I get is that the end result looks mind bogglingly complicated but is in fact comprised of individual and duplicated 'building blocks' depending on how many fittings of a particular type are needed.

Colin

[carlmt]

Have you had the first proof prints yet Carlos?

Not yet Martin - it has all been checked by the robots at Shapeways and passed for manufacture.  Should get a set back in a couple of weeks.... Just have to order it!!!

[carlmt]

Amazing stuff Carl. Do you draw the vrious componenets separately and then transfer them to the supporting frame? Does the software take care of potential conflicts and help with making the best fit?

The impression I get is that the end result looks mind bogglingly complicated but is in fact comprised of individual and duplicated 'building blocks' depending on how many fittings of a particular type are needed.

Colin

Hi Colin

Yes, all the various components are drawn separately, copied however many times they are needed and then grouped into a bounding box.  It is all done by MK1 eyeball - the Sketchup software doesn't offer this facility that I am aware of.  What has to be borne in mind is to allow sufficient room around each part to access the sprue with side cutters - usually a couple of millimetres is sufficient - and that every element drawn as plastic has a cost.  Hence the holes in the top and bottom plates to reduce the volume of plastic - there is sufficient to support the pieces but not an excess to drive up the cost.  On the first check-pass, before I cut the holes, the cube was costing £10 more than after I cut the holes.

I found it strangely fun trying to fit all the parts into as small as box as possible - quite a mind-boggling exercise really!!  Beats crosswords and suduko any day 

[Subculture]

I do know that Shapeways have one of the new HP 3d printers. I don't think they're offering it as a print material yet, but must be available soon I reckon. The HP printers can print at about ten times the speed of SLS machines, and with high quality prints by the looks of things. This should bring the cost of printing down quite a bit in the foreseeable future.

[Martin (Admin)]

Not yet Martin - it has all been checked by the robots at Shapeways and passed for manufacture.  Should get a set back in a couple of weeks.... Just have to order it!!!

Get this right Carl and this could be something big for the model boat fraternity!

[tigertiger]

One question that did strike me about the cube idea, will it still fit in the box? Thinking that the height of the cube may cause problems

[marinemole]

An interesting thread and one I shall be following with interest.


I agree wholeheartedly with the concept as I tried a similar excercise some time ago and saved money. In my case I used a mixture of  spruing and sinter cage but, in hindsight, the cage was overkill and upped the cost. At that time I was concerned about damage to delicate parts like the AA gun barrels, which were well below the manufacturers minimum size specifications.


I used 3d Print UK,  ordering their low priority service (half the cost), and have to say I was delighted with the results. I have no experience of Shapeway.


Some pictures below. Please note that some of the individual items on the composite drawing are of items with proposed enhanced detail and not as printed. Also I specified minimum cleaning and declined the free polishing on offer, again on the grounds of concerns over the AA guns. All items are 1:100 scale and the items in the last picture are illustrated way over size.


Good luck with this project.


Andy

[RAAArtyGunner]

It may the images but there appears to be lack of defined detail, here and on other threads, and drooping of "barrels".

Shouldn't compare apples and oranges but still not up to injection moulding.???

[Subculture]

Different materials and processes. SLS using nylon gives a slightly furry texture to components, if you want something with injection moulded quality then you should use printers that cure resin e.g. Objet printers. These give very fine parts, but they're bit more delicate than the SLS nylon parts.

There are lots of newer materials come through now, graphene enhanced resins for instance will enable very strong but highly detailed parts.

[RAAArtyGunner]

Thank you.

Yes, I suppose there is still a lot of learning and development ahead.

So over time quality will improve.

[Subculture]

Yes, although quality is extremely high already. Price of printing will also come down a lot I think in the next year or two.

[marinemole]

It may the images but there appears to be lack of defined detail, here and on other threads, and drooping of "barrels".

Shouldn't compare apples and oranges but still not up to injection moulding.???

Don't disagree with comment but there's injection moulding and injection moulding. The answer to the gun barrels is to use steel pins but there are other issues with this. From memory the barrels are 0.5mm or less. The printed ones are very easily bent and I have seen comments from other people regarding 'droop' over time. No comments please. I'll spruce one of the gun mounts up and try to take a decent picture.


My venture was an experiment but I was reasonably happy with the results. On and off I've been working on a MkII design and one of the compromises I've made is to beef up the barrels a bit. My original plan was to add detail using etched brass but there are manufacturing limits there too, so I'm experimenting with adding more printed detail which will inevitably be non scale.


Agree with comments in general about 'furriness', but to be fair the parts still had powder residue and I hadn't gone for the polishing service.


Modellers have always innovated and experimented and 3d printing is just another example. Interesting to see where it takes us.


Feel I may be hijacking Carl's post but eagerly awaiting his finished product. He is absolutely correct about the virtues of of a nested design.




Andy

[carlmt]

Andy - Please don't feel that you are hi-jacking the post...on the contrary, this sort of input can only expand our knowledge and understanding of this new and developing technology.  Please feel free to continue  .
 
Well, today I got back from Shapeways the first cubes!!!!
Not too shabby if I do say so myself - except that two parts were fused together!!     My fault!! I hadn't checked closely enough the clearance around all the parts, and two of them are actually over-lapping in the original file.  Just fixed that little error now.
 
Another little 'annoyance' is that some of the parts have elements that are below the minimum thickness tolerance for the material. It seems to have printed OK though, but my page on the Shapeways site only offers me the chance to repeat print in the much more expensive FUD material.  I am going to have to re-look at the original artwork and up the thicknesses in some areas.  The minimum for the 'white, strong & flexible' is 0.7mm..........some of these parts are as thin as 0.3mm.
 
Anyroad - here are a few shots of the returned parts (BTW - these have just been taken from the bag, and have not been washed / cleaned up yet. They still have the printing residue and dust on them):
 

 

 

 

 

 
As an experiment in the new year, I will send the same file to 3DPrint-UK for them to have a go at.  If it comes back at an acceptable quality, then we could well go forward with using them in the future.  Will report back on that one 

[marinemole]

Well done that man! Looks impressive, you must be pleased.


Sympathies on the collision, been there and a hazard of a 'shoehorned' design. There is software on the market to detect collisions but not economic for the quantities I do. If you spot any freeware for this let me know please.


Very interested on your comments on below min size components. I think the manufacturers probably overstate their minimums so that they can't be held liable for failure. Tbe problem with the scales we are working to is that a true scale design is unworkable and the manufacturing process has to be taken into account. That said, like you, I chanced my arm. Won some, lost some.


Please post pictures of the items once off the sprue.


You may well have succeeded in jolting me out of a rut and motivating me to get moving again. Continued good luck with your project.


Andy

[ballastanksian]

Andy, what ship are the bits you printed for? I assume it is an Allied one given the proliferation of Bofors and Heysmeyer mounts.

I could not see a name.

The parts do look good, and also versatile. I could see sets selling for general ship modelling.

[marinemole]

Andy, what ship are the bits you printed for?

The parts are for a 1:100 IJN Fuso which I've been tinkering with for more years than I care to remember. Ashamed to say I've done virtually nothing on it since getting the parts printed but I have drawn up more to be printed when motivation returns.


The guns are 25mm Japanese type 96 and would therefore be of interest to a limited audience.


I'm interested in this thread due to the concept of nesting parts in a single print order. It could be a way for clubs to go for instance, reducing costs for handling, shipping etc. Joe orders 2 IJN Type 96, Brian 4 US quad Bofors mounts, A N Other some anchor chain, etc etc etc. Would need someone in the club capable of drawing the cube of course. Once an item is drawn it can be used to print any quantity in any print order and, importantly, in any scale or mixture of scales. At first glance a different concept to carlmt's project which provides a fixed set of parts to be repeat printed as part of a kit, but actually not so different. Carl's design can be fairly easily modified at any time to produce a bespoke print. Let's say his project was a long serving warship which was frequently refitted. If the individual items are already drawn it would be possible to produce bespoke versions of the cube for a particular period in the ship's history.


Sorry. Ramblings of a somewhat hungover OAP.


Andy

[ballastanksian]

It won't take long for someone to design a program that can cage items efficiently and reliably as it is a ground breaking idea based on the systems used in the fabric and preformed parts industry to maximise the use of a given length of material. I remember seeing Teddy bear skins being mapped out onto a long piece of fur for stamping out years back.

Fuso is one of my top ten favourite battleships on the very long, long to build list along with Kongo or Nagato. I might be after a set from you if we are not both in our dotage when I start building it!!!