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Author Topic: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman  (Read 9725 times)

zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #150 on: November 07, 2020, 10:14:33 pm »

I have the decks trimmed back now Chris, so after a little more sanding and a small dab of P38 I have to decide whether to add some cloth covering or not.


If I do go down the covering route I am tempted to use the solvent based resin rather than the water based type.


Maybe I should do the inside first and take a little longer considering the advantages or covering or not covering the outside of the hull?
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tonyH

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #151 on: November 08, 2020, 09:14:38 pm »

Decks in place.
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #152 on: November 08, 2020, 10:29:03 pm »

Hi Bob

Taking shape nicely.

As I said you don't really need the cloth for added strength but you can still use the resin as a good basis for painting and you can go over the chine rails and strakes as well.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #153 on: November 09, 2020, 10:32:52 am »

Thanks Chris,


I had my first go at using epoxy finishing resin and cloth last night (in the engine bay) and I found the cloth to be quite reluctant to conform to the complex shapes as I tried to cover and wrap the motor mount.


Getting the trapped air out from under the cloth was not easy as the edges began to fray and then the loose frayed strands stuck to the brush as I tried to wipe or stipple the bubbles out  - and this in turn pulled on the cloth that was sat down nicely and lifted it again!


Using a hard "wiper"only worked better on the small flat area but was no better at trying to persuade the cloth to "wrap" around any sharp edge.


When using glass fibre the secret is to keep it wet and stipple away and everything works out nicely - but the epoxy is very sticky so wiping it off the surface is the prescribed method as wetting it does nothing to help.


I can imagine that applying the cloth to the outside of a hull or deck where there are no complex shapes to negotiate could be comparatively simple (not without its challenges I'm sure) but trying to cover complex shapes is not so easy......and I now understand better why it is not possible to fix the strakes, deck edging and chine strips first if the plan is to cloth cover the hull!


I have not dared to go out into the workshop yet to see how my pathetic attempt at covering the motor mount has dried, but I am expecting it will need some "remedial work" later today to clean it up.


Stay safe,


Bob.







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tonyH

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #154 on: November 09, 2020, 12:23:42 pm »

Did you use any Spray-Mount! (Other sticky sprays are available!) >:-o
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2020, 04:50:54 pm »

Did you use any Spray-Mount! (Other sticky sprays are available!) >:-o


Nah - I don't have any spray adhesive.


Presumably the technique is to coat the hull part to be covered with a spray adhesive and then lay the cloth on to locate it ?


I have some questions about this: -


1. does the spray mount allow for a little movement before setting to allow any small wrinkles etc to be pulled-out so the cloth can be pushed and held in the correct place so that when the epoxy is brushed on afterwards it does not move around?


2. does the spray adhesive reduce the bond strength between the resin and the wood?


3. Is the spray mount just used as a "dab" here and there, or is it a total coating to laminate the cloth onto the wood before the final epoxy coat?


Whilst I am "on a roll" with the questions about fixing cloth coverings with finishing epoxy, I have a couple more - is it possible to clean the brush after use - or does every brush used have to be regarded as "disposable"?


Also - the epoxy is quite thick and sticky - is there a thinner that can be used to thin the epoxy to make it easier to use and penetrate the wood and the cloth better - and if so - is this the same thinner that can be used to clean-up any brushes or spreaders that have been used?


Last question (you are hoping!), I would need to be able to buy any "thinner", cleaner, and spray mount "online" and have it delivered - any ideas on what to buy and where to buy it from that can also deliver?


Thanks for the time spend answering these questions - I guess other "first time coaters" could also benefit from this shared knowledge too!
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JimG

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #156 on: November 09, 2020, 09:35:55 pm »

I have used spray mount in the past for wing skinning and it was a light coat to get the surface tacky. You do need care to get the cloth on correctly first time as there was not much movement available to get rid of faults. Nowadays  I just lay the cloth on the surface getting it flat then paint on just enough epoxy to wet the surface, carefully brushing it to stop any wrinkles. Some pour an amount of epoxy onto the cloth and use an old credit card to spread it out, again the epoxy is spread out as far as possible to give wet surface, any sections still white need a bit more epoxy added. Some use a toilet roll to mop up excess epoxy, Roll it the right way and the paper is not left on the surface, the wet paper can be removed from the roll leaving a fresh surface behind.
I find that a proper finishing epoxy is thin and spreads easily, not being very sticky as it is not a glue. I use Deluxe Materials Aeropoxy. Epoxy can be thinned with isopropyl alcohol which should evaporate away before the epoxy hardens, make sure it is pure not with water added as rubbing alcohol.. As an alternative meths can be used although it gives a purple tint. A possible solvent is bioethanol fuel sold for burners at places like B&Q. These solvents can also be used to clean brushes after use although I tend to find brushes will still go hard after a few uses.
Jim
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #157 on: November 12, 2020, 10:49:53 am »





My first attempt at using laminating cloth with epoxy resin on the motor mounting plate in my Swordsman didn't look as bad as I feared it would when it had dried (cured?) - but it is not perfect - just a bit better than I had thought it would be!


I made a similar shaped motor mounting plate to fit into the "kit made" Aerokits Swordsman that I have "taken on" to complete alongside my own hull (based on the same plans). After I had fixed the motor plate in place with 24hr Araldite,  I fitted the additional  brace in front of the mounting plate to further lock the motor plate in place (belt and braces) so it should "stay put" when in use.


After waiting for the 5mm - 5mm alignment shaft to arrive, I fitted it onto the motor shaft to make sure that the motor plate was aligned correctly before bedding it into the hull, but I noticed that when the motor turned, it had quite a large wobble with it fitted onto its output shaft, so I shoved my home made version onto the motor and it turned with no wobble at all!



This was a bit disappointing - especially when a muppet like myself can rustle-up sometime in his shed that worked much better !


All of my motor plates have one of the water-cooled alloy motor mounts bonded onto it - whether the hull will run with water cooling or not. 


By doing this I have made a "universal motor mounting system" for myself so that I can fit any brushless motor (out-runner or in-runner) into any mount in any hull.


These alloy mounts are inexpensive and readily available online from a number of sources and each one comes with a pair of epoxy "side cheeks" that can be fixed into the hull permanently.


With the motor bolted onto the water-cooled alloy mount, it can easily be removed and replaced simply by unscrewing the alloy mount from between these "side cheeks" with the motor still attached to the mount. This makes it easy to swap motors between hulls, and this can be very handy when testing different motors to see what works the best.


I will fit 6mm gold plugs and sockets onto all of my motor wires and matching ESC connecting wires so I have a genuine "plug-in, plug-out" motor mounting system.  This will be very useful and save a lot of time as I compare running motors and ESC with and without water cooling.


As I leave the 24hr Araldite to dry on the motor mounts in the Swordsman hull,  I will take a look at the Remora that I have been building from a Vic Smeed plan - a project that got “put to one side” when the Humbrol French Blue spray paint supply run out and the colour was dropped from the paint range during the first lock-down.  .
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2020, 11:36:09 am »

I also had a problem in that the alignment coupling I bought at the same time as the flexible coupling, alloy/rubber type, was tight and the holes weren't drilled deep enough with the result that the prop shaft became wedged in the alignment coupling and I had difficulty getting it out. I couldn't return it as I tried drilling it out some more and got another one. This was a bit better. The prop shaft and motor shafts were a perfect fit in the flexible coupling.

I did manage to align the motor and prop shaft by pushing them part way into the alignment coupling but not ideal. It's annoying and frustrating when you go to the trouble of buying the "correct" tool for the job and it falls short.

It's a pity that my BiL has retired from the engineering company that he worked for as they made aircraft parts!


Chris
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2020, 12:36:17 pm »

Mounts etc.
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mbm999

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2020, 05:14:19 pm »

Interesting that you both had issues with the purpose made alignment tool - as did I with one (I wonder if it was the same seller). I actually took a video of the wobble and emailed him and he sent me a new one. This one was better but still had a slight wobble so i decided not to use it. Sadly, I won't use this seller again, a real pity as the products he offers look really good.

On a positive note, I find all the questions/thoughts/feedback about the build really useful as these are challenges I will come across when doing my next build (a Swordsman too). The idea of a generic motor mount is interesting concept - does it have the capability to move forwards and backwards too (just thinking that some motors have their shafts at opposite ends - I think?).
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2020, 05:41:53 pm »

Interesting that you both had issues with the purpose made alignment tool - as did I with one (I wonder if it was the same seller). I actually took a video of the wobble and emailed him and he sent me a new one. This one was better but still had a slight wobble so i decided not to use it. Sadly, I won't use this seller again, a real pity as the products he offers look really good.

On a positive note, I find all the questions/thoughts/feedback about the build really useful as these are challenges I will come across when doing my next build (a Swordsman too). The idea of a generic motor mount is interesting concept - does it have the capability to move forwards and backwards too (just thinking that some motors have their shafts at opposite ends - I think?).


Nice to know that there could be another Swordsman build starting soon - lets hope its a 1/12 scale as it makes a really nice size boat that can handle most water conditions that you are ever likely to encounter here in the UK - I have even raced mine off-shore in the open sea - and on one occasion in a 6ft swell (!), and the boat still performed well and gave me no trouble at all.


The motor mounts that I use can be bought online from all the usual sellers and it is cheap enough to buy one for each hull.


Each alloy motor mount come with water-cooling, but there is no need to use this feature if you prefer to run a "dry" (non-water cooled system) and a pair of epoxy resin side cheeks .  These side cheeks need to be fitted securely into the hull - I choose to mount mine onto a solid motor plate that is permanently fixed into the hull and I used 24 hour Araldite to hold mine in place.


As you can see from the pictures this mount is non adjustable for length positioning,  so the way that I have it fixed,  it would not be suitable for the type of brushless motor that has its output shaft in the reverse direction to the one shown in the pictures.


I do have motors of this type and I have used one to them in my current Remora build. I have used exactly the same mounts, but as the main body of the out-runner spins in front of the mounting position (rather than behind it) the radio plate is secured into the hull further forwards than it would be for the type of out-runner that is more normally used in model boats.


Late last night I was thinking that when I have no other projects to keep me busy, I may cut this mount out of the Remora and re-fit it in the more usual position so that I can use any of my out-runner motors in any hull (except the "aero" type that I have fitted in it at the moment). When I get around to doing this all of my hulls will be able to accept any of my usual choice of out-runner or in-runner motor.



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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2020, 06:02:59 pm »

I exchanged emails with the seller and to give him credit he did explain his process of drilling and reaming and checking against a standard shaft. Notwithstanding that though I found it too tight - that was for the 4mm end of a 4/5mm coupling and one end of a 4/4mm coupling, so something wasn't right! Manufacturers shafts undoubtedly vary slightly but if he had checked against the Powerflex coupling which he supplied and which fitted a treat it would have been fine. It's a pity that Powerflex don't make the solid coupling as well. Tightness is one thing but a wobble is inexcusable!

What Swordsman are you planning on building mbm?

Chris   
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mbm999

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2020, 07:07:24 pm »

It's the SLEC 1/16 Swordsman - I thought the construction would be similar to my Diva and whilst it is, there are many differences which i hadn't expected (balsa blocks and a cloth hull covering to name just a couple), neither of which i've worked with before.

I haven't started it yet as i keep getting waylaid and once you start it's hard to put it down when other (non boat related) jobs are calling!
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2020, 07:30:35 pm »

It's the SLEC 1/16 Swordsman - I thought the construction would be similar to my Diva and whilst it is, there are many differences which i hadn't expected (balsa blocks and a cloth hull covering to name just a couple), neither of which i've worked with before.

I haven't started it yet as i keep getting waylaid and once you start it's hard to put it down when other (non boat related) jobs are calling!


The Aerokits plan is the one that I have used in this thread, and it is still available on eBay so you could build a 1/12 scale Swordsman that has no balsa wood blocks to carve in the bows as it has plywood skinning all the way up to the front. The cost to build this bigger model would not be so different to buying the kit - maybe less?


The plan also comes with a set of parts drawings that can be used as long as you fold each bulkhead etc in half to make your own symmetrical template (I use old cereal packets to make my templates from) and check-fit them against the plan rather than use them "as they come" because they are not that accurately drawn - but easily corrected.


Another 1/12 plan for a Swordsman is the P Connolly version and these can be bought from Cornwall Model Boats (and probably other sources too!). The obvious difference between these two is that the Aerokits version has the superstructure integrated into the hull so access us gained via the removable cabin tops, whereas the P.Connoly plan will build a model that has a complete lift-off superstructure that gives incredible access for working inside the hull.


Whilst I am experimenting with cloth covering it is most definitely NOT needed on the all plywood covered hull, although its use may save some time compared to conventionally finishing it with sealer etc in the traditional way.
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mbm999

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2020, 08:32:09 pm »

If the Swordsman goes well, my intention will be to build the next one from a plan.
I didn't feel confident enough to do it this time and didn't want to ruin the hobby for myself by getting disheartened cos i can't cut straight (or curved)!
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #166 on: November 14, 2020, 08:40:49 pm »

When I decided to make the Swordsman so that I would be able to change quickly from running with a water-cooled motor and ESC to running with a 'dry" (non water-cooled) motor and ESC,  I fitted the water cooled alloy motor mounts as they can be used with or without water-cooling and it would be easy to connect/disconnect the water cooling tubes.


I bought a Surpass 120amp car type ESC to run in the Swordsman,  and  I already have a water-cooled ESC, so this new ESC would give me the chance to run the boat with a "dry" (non water-cooled) as well as my regular water-cooled set-up.


When the Surpass ESC arrived it looked like a nice chunky bit of kit, and as I was intending to run a Surpass motor (to start with at least) I thought that I would connect the  two together just to make sure they both worked OK.


The motor came fitted with some smart looking gold plugs and the ESC came fitted with some good looking gold sockets of the same size and an Deans plug on the power lead.  Although I personally don't like Deans plugs that much, I do have some LiPos that came with them fitted, so I pulled off the XT90 converter plugs that I usually run on this LiPo and connected everything together to test it with radio and steering service fitted.


The first thing I noticed was that the 4mm Surpass plugs do not fit the 4mm Surpass sockets very well (understatement), in fact they were so loose that they just fell out under their own weight!


I held the plugs and sockets together with masking tape just while I checked to see if everything was working OK, and the Surpass motor and ESC were both working well..


My plan has aways been to fit 6mm gold plugs and sockets to all my motors and ESC so it would be easy to exchange different motors and ESC in any hull, and with the water-cooled alloy motor mounts allowing the motors to be swapped so easily it would make testing any combination fairly hassle free.


The nice looking (but poor fitting) Surpass gold plugs encouraged me to get the soldering iron out this afternoon and to make a start on changing my motors and ESC to run with 6mm gold plugs and sockets. (some that I have been running for the last few years already had them!)


The Surpass motor plugs fitted nicely into the solder-cup of the 6mm gold plugs (!) so I just tinned them and soldered them into the sockets rather than cut them off (they don't fit anything else that I have anyway!).  This looked like a nice neat solution, but I will keep a watchful eye on them and if there are any problems I will just chop them off and re-solder the joint directly with the motor wires as normal.


Now I have a small "fleet" of motors and ESC that all fit each other, and I can fit any motor into any hull due to the "universal" alloy motor mounts.


This will enable me to test the "real life" performance of any motor when it is water-cooled or run "dry" (no water-cooling).  I can also run water-cooled ESC too as the water pick-ups will be fitted in every hull.


I will be able to connect the water cooling hose to either the motor and/or a suitable ESC  - or just directly to the water outlet and by-pass the motor and/or the ESC to run a totally "dry" power system.


This should finally prove if brushless motors run better when water-cooled or when run dry in my hulls.  I can check the performance and the run times as well as checking to see how hot the motor and the ESC are after each run.


I enjoy experimenting and I am aware of the reasons given "against" using water-cooling as well as those "for" using water-cooling , so at least in my own hulls I will know for sure what works best for me.



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tonyH

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2020, 12:50:00 pm »

To illustrate the previous post....
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #168 on: December 01, 2020, 11:21:52 pm »

When changing and/or fitting the 6mm gold plugs and sockets to my motors and ESC's I ordered some heat shrink tubing off of eBay.


Over the last 50 or more years I have bought my heat shrink tubing from a variety of sources, but mostly from model shops as I don't use that much of it in an average year, but this supplier had different colours that would be ideal for use on the three wires that run between a brushless motor and an ESC - so I bought some.


I knew that I needed heat shrink that was 12mm wide to be able to insert my 6mm plugs and sockets and for it to shrink down tightly afterwards as this was the size that I have used for many years for this job.


Imagine my surprise when my new supply of heat shrink arrived with each colour having a sticker to identify it as being 12mm wide - but it looked much bigger!


When I measured it the width was actually 20mm (actually more - almost  21mm wide!).  Slightly disappointing I suppose as the job was delayed,  but no problem - it must just be a packing error so I will get it changed.


This was not as easy as it should have been !


The seller accused me of "just seeking attention" and he claimed that they never made any heat shrink tubing that was 20mm wide - so I sent him a nice clear picture of his tubing held against a clearly printed ruler - and he then said I was measuring it wrongly as width means diameter "as I well know"...... he said!


To put this to the test I took his "advice" and ordered some "8mm heat shrink tubing" from him and when it arrived it actually measures 15mm - closer - but still not 12mm, but I will try it and if it works thats fine with me.


As the written English the seller used was not prefect, I thought this may have just been an over-seas based supplier who measured their heat shrink in a different way but he advised me that he was in London - and asked me what country I came from!


To cut a long story short the response I received was rude and aggressive  - and I have still failed to find a way of buying the size that I wanted to buy - and I would have to pay to return the first "12mm" batch that I bought because ... I ordered it wrong.


Based purely on my own recent experience, I would suggest that if you do decide to buy some coloured heat shrink from eBay it would be wise to ask the supplier to measure the width of the heat shrink that you would like to buy first as it could save many days of frustration and avoid being insulted by an aggressive seller who claims to be "from London".


I would stress the   "to cut a long story short"     bit of this story as this is a shortened summary of a fiasco that has still not been resolved!

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #169 on: December 01, 2020, 11:28:40 pm »

That's frustrating to say the least.


The seller says they are London based, but probably abroad and just a P.O box address in the UK so they can say UK seller.
ETA sometimes gives a clue if from abroad or not, but not always.


Fingers crossed the "8mm" does the job for you.


Will
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #170 on: December 02, 2020, 12:26:11 am »

To be fair Bob it is usually advertised by diameter which is how you measure the cable even if it is supplied flat which will be a bigger measurement. Have you bought by width in the past then? Usually heat shrink for small diameters is tubular and for larger ones is flat.

Chris
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #171 on: December 02, 2020, 12:40:43 am »

Hi, the spacing of your paragraphs in your posts suggests pictures inbetween -am I not getting them?  It's been a problem recently some can see pics hosted here and some can't.  Your posts make allot better sense to me if we have some pictures???  Think I'm missing something here each time?
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #172 on: December 02, 2020, 10:36:22 am »

To be fair Bob it is usually advertised by diameter which is how you measure the cable even if it is supplied flat which will be a bigger measurement. Have you bought by width in the past then? Usually heat shrink for small diameters is tubular and for larger ones is flat.

Chris


Hi Chris.

I still have the header cards from previous heat shrink purchases over the years and the width of the flat tubing is the size that is printed on the header cards, so basically if it says it is 10mm wide - then it will measure 10mm wide.

My local model shop has plenty in stock (sadly only in black and red) and the header cards state the width of the flat heat shrink tube and this has never changed over the last 30+ years that they have been selling it from various suppliers.

It is looking like heat shrink tubing is measured and sold in two distinctly different ways - but until I bought this last coloured batch I had never encountered this "alternative" way of measuring it.

A more helpful supplier could have explained this simply and politely - perhaps even offering some sort of conversion chart on their advertisement to show how wide the heat shrink tubing would actually be if it was sold by diameter.

I ordered 12mm flat heat shrink tubing - and it measures over 20mm wide. 

I ordered 8mm flat heat shrink tubing - and it measures 15mm wide.

I suppose the above could be the start of some sort of comparison chart - but only if the seller identified the measurement system he was using when selling it.

Stay safe!

Bob.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #173 on: December 02, 2020, 01:26:42 pm »

Hi Bob

First time I've ever bought any (suprisingly) was recently from Component Shop and they and Cornwall Model Boats only give the diameter which I suppose makes more sense for most uses. I must admit  I thought 12mm was a bit big when you told me to use it for the 6mm connectors! Now I know why.

No excuse for being rude though because he didn't know it can also be specified by width from some suppliers.

Chris
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Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #174 on: December 02, 2020, 05:38:16 pm »

Hi Bob

First time I've ever bought any (suprisingly) was recently from Component Shop and they and Cornwall Model Boats only give the diameter which I suppose makes more sense for most uses. I must admit  I thought 12mm was a bit big when you told me to use it for the 6mm connectors! Now I know why.

No excuse for being rude though because he didn't know it can also be specified by width from some suppliers.

Chris



Thats what it is all about.

I don't suppose I care how the flat heat shrink tubing is measured so long as I can buy something that does the job for me and I know how to order the correct size.

Being polite costs nothing and helping customers is "key" to future business growth.

Changing the subject slightly - but still concerning heat shrinking - I have just bought myself a new tool for shrinking heat shrink tubing. Running the heat shrink through a flame from a lighter, or rubbing it on the back of the soldering iron both work well enough (and are the two methods that I currently use!), but some years ago a friend of mine gave me an electric "heat shrink gun"and that worked really well and never burnt the tubing as long as the gun was kept moving.

It looked like a hair dryer but run a lot hotter and had a curved metal lip on the end of the spout to hold the heat shrink.  This was clean and worked really well, but after many years of good service it finally failed and I have been unable to find anything like it.

What I have bought now is much smaller and works on butane gas.  I am looking forward to testing it tonight with this new coloured flat heat shrink tube to see how they both perform!

If all goes well I will have different coloured heat shrink sleeving on all of my brushless motor and ESC wires that I think will look quite smart. This is probably totally unnecessary as I have always got by with plain old black and red until now, but seeing some of the new brushless motors and ESC now come with different coloured heat shrink on each of the three wires seemed like a good idea so I thought I would go the same way!
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