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Author Topic: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman  (Read 9215 times)

ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2020, 10:30:51 am »

Hi Mudway

RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.

Just noticed you're in Sydney though!

Chris   
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2020, 10:43:17 am »

Hi Bob

Yes, I agree that the extra length would be provided by adding extra pieces in the middle, probably at the point of maximum beam.

I have some photos in a book but can't post them due to copyright but if you Google Fairey Marine 42 etc. and then images it throws a few up. Superstructures are generally a lot different to the usual Swordsman.

Chris
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mudway

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2020, 10:50:53 am »

Hi Mudway

RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.

Just noticed you're in Sydney though!

Chris


Thanks, that's the catch, getting 1 metre shipped to Oz. A 34" Huntsman windscreen is roughly 550mm x 150 mm if you want a one piece one. I did contemplate making it in 3 parts but didn't like the idea.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2020, 02:33:18 am »

Apparently, instead of Perspex, in Oz it is now called either Vivak or P.E.T.G. The bad news is that the shops only sell the .5 mm thickness in 1.2 x 2.4 metre sheets. 
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2020, 08:51:49 pm »

Hi Mudway

RadioJoe in his Hunters Moon build used PVC from SLEC. They say it is suitable for aircraft and boat windscreens and is available in 1000 x 600 sheets.

Just noticed you're in Sydney though!

Chris


Hi Chris,


I was ordering some wood online from SLEC today and was "checking-out" when I remembered what you had said about the source of a suitable clear PVC sheet and so I "went back" and added a 1000 x 600 sheet to my order for use (at a later date!) on my Swordsman.


My next job is to re-size the chine supports and cut a new pair in 1/4" (6mm) plywood.


I have cut and chamfered the forward keel doublers and cut the 1/2" x 1/2" rear keel doublers ready to sandwich around the M5 prop shaft when it arrives from modelboatbits  - hopefully this week!


As soon as the prop shaft arrives I can fit the doublers, breasthook and K3 chine formers and B1 Bulkhead (Aerokits original part numbers) to encourage me to get the bandsaw switched on and cut the bulkheads and cabin sides so I can fit all the parts together "dry" to see if they still "jig" everything together nice and square before gluing together and fitting the lower ply skins and motor mounts.


Aerokits use of a 4mm plywood keel is quite smart as it is relatively easy to pull any slight twist "straight" as the cabin sides and bulkhead interlock together and self-align everything prior to committing to glueing the shapes together.


Les Rowel also used the same keel material sizing on his 39" Javelin so it works well enough for a bigger boat too and was good enough to keep my first Swordsman together when I raced it off-shore where it was "put to sea" and raced in appalling conditions that actually broke some of its rivals - but the Swordsman never flinched!


I think I can see where the inspiration for the "Rapier" name came from following his successful "Swordsman" kit (and then came the Stiletto and Javelin) all of them were "CUTTING EDGE" designs  :-)) 


Stay safe,


Bob.

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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2020, 10:44:48 am »

I had a recent delivery from SLEC as I needed some more 1.5mm birch ply for the Huntress hull skins. As usual I ordered a few other sheets of ply and mahogany strip etc. for stock and the Swordsman deck to make the postage worthwhile.

Sounds as though the Swordsman build is coming on nicely now Bob. Obviously when the skins are on the hull is very strong whatever thickness of ply is used for the keel and bulkheads etc.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2020, 01:37:49 pm »

Hi Chris,


My Swordsman will have the same size wood as the Aerokits model that I built back in 196....something or other, but that does not mean that it is the ultimate choice of material sizes - I am using these as it will make an authentic replica and I know that it works well and makes a good strong model.


In the past I have used heavier wood in the keel in particular and if that is the wood that I have available the next time I build I would not hesitate to use it - but getting any slight twists out of a thicker weight keel can be a lot harder, so I would have to make certain that the wood was absolutely flat before (and after) cutting it.


I prefer to build good solid boats rather than skimp of the wood thickness and then end up having to carry "dead weight" to get the boat down to the marks when it gets wet for the first time - so I am hoping that my choice to build to the original spec will work-out as well for my electric powered model as it did for my Merco 61 twin plug powered original.


As a matter of interest, the Fairy book (that I think you referred to previously) has just been reprinted as a 3rd edition.  "Fairey Marine - Boat, Raceboats, Rival and Revivals".
Its a bit pricey at 53 plus 9 delivery, but Amazon always sold the previous editions so when it arrives in their warehouse I will see what price they are asking for it as it could be lower and will have free delivery too  - and that will make quite a difference to the overall cost of the book.


Stay safe.


Bob.



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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2020, 03:08:36 pm »

Yes, that's the one. Excellent book though and if for anyone interested in Faireys it's the go to source for information along with the Fairey Owners Club web-site. The book has been the inspiration for three, no four of my Fairey builds and has provided information on them that I haven't found anywhere else.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2020, 02:17:18 pm »

Hi Chris,


What size prop shaft did you buy to fit your 1/12 scale Swordsman?


I know that is was M5 and ball raced but the length would be interesting as it may have to be slightly longer than a plain bearing shaft to clear the motor bay bulkhead that it would pass through on the Aerokits type assembly.


I see that your choice of Raboesch ball raced prop shafts are sold in cm (rather than inches).


Bob.
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2020, 04:07:39 pm »

Hi Bob


I'm using the 450mm one in my Swordsman build. I probably won't be using the coupling shown now as I've started using the alloy/rubber/alloy type. I will probably need to cut the prop shaft down a bit though.


Chris



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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2020, 04:48:42 pm »

Wow - that's almost 18" long - I was only going to fit an 11" M5 plain Maxi Shaft in my Swordsman.


I will get the Aerokits Swordsman plans out and take another look to check the length to make sure that I have enough submerged and able to clear an X50 prop (probably the maximum size I would run following testing)  with enough inside the hull to connect to my Powerflex coupling.


I think 11" is just under 280mm so I also need to check the Cornwall site to see what M5 sizes they have available.


Thanks for the info Chris - I may have made a mistake!


Stay safe!


Bob.




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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2020, 05:35:22 pm »

You probably haven't made a mistake Bob, I'd have to check the drawings myself but I think I used a longer prop shaft to achieve a slightly lower angle and why being such a long shaft and a powerful motor I went for a 5mm rather than my more usual 4mm. One of my initial drawings shows the motor sitting further back in the cabin. This was the first model drawing I did and I think I worked on not cutting the prop shaft down. I've since done that on other builds and so if doing the drawing now would work on the basis of reducing the length of the prop shaft a bit. I've also worked on the basis of using a 45mm prop so a bit smaller than yours. The one shown is only a 40mm.


The outer dia. is 10mm and makes for a big and heavy prop shaft but the beamy hull of the Swordsman can take it. I was going to use one in the Huntsman 31 but changed to a 4mm even though it's the same length, as the 5mm one seemed out of proportion and too heavy for the more slender hull. It's usually recommended that a 5mm is used for prop shafts of that length but I'm working on the principle that Raboesch must think it's man enough for the job and won't whip too much.


Chris
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2020, 06:18:15 pm »

Here's a photo of the prop shaft trial fitted in the hull. Again with a prop smaller than the 45mm I'm going to use. As you can see I would have struggled with a shorter prop shaft as I would have been very close, maybe too close, to the keel?

They do a 290mm - with a 50mm prop and therefore steeper angle you might be alright, especially if your keel isn't as deep as mine. Otherwise go for a longer one and cut it down which is a good option as you can have it the optimum length taking into account the prop, angle, coupling and motor position. 450mm does sound long but I've just had a look at that for my Swordsman and it doesn't look it (the 10mm diameter helps with that), measured off what a 290mm looks like and it looks titchy!

Just noticed as well that I have the prop much closer to the rudder than shown on the Aerokits drawing - it all adds up!

All part of the fun!!

Chris
 
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2020, 08:19:33 pm »

Thanks for the follow-up Chris - very helpful.


Since my last scribe I have started adding the keel doublers after opening-up the slot for the prop shaft from 6mm (as per plan) to accommodate the 8mm Maxi Shaft that I already have. This would be easy to open up to accommodate a 10mm shaft at a later date.


I have done this is such a way as to keep the boat length and the shaft angle exactly as per Aerokits plan. I also know that my last Swordsman steered very well, so I will keep the rudder position as per plan too.


The size of the propeller could be anything between S40 and X50 - with even the possibility of an S55 - and the Aerokits plans allow for this amount of variation without the need to make any changes (I have tested this with these actual props).


I have no idea how to decide on what prop any boat is going to need until it has been run and tested - although actual running experience with any particular hull or motor can give a good starting point for any new build. There are so many variables that can all influence the best prop for any particular hull and motor combination - and of course the boat users preferred operating requirements (speed, duration, lake, off-shore etc).  This is why I like to have some tolerance when fitting the shaft - but with the Swordsman I do not have to worry as Aerokits (by design or good fortune) have got all the usable options catered for.


Another reason why I only using plastic props initially, is because they are inexpensive to test with and to get some idea about what works best with any particular hull/motor combination.  Changing to brass after testing can still produce some surprises - but the experience gained when running the plastic props does help when deciding what size of brass props to invest in.  Different numbers of propeller blades can make quite a difference too, and fortunately it is still possible to find plastic props with two, three and four blades to experiment with and this can be helpful too.


I hope to complete fitting all of the doublers this evening and then start cutting-out some more bulkheads (using your drawings) tomorrow after I have made some card templates for them.


As a matter of interest, I used the Aerokits pattern for the 6mm chine formers , and re-cut the breasthook in 6mm (your drawings) and everything now aligns correctly and fits together really well ........so far!


Lets hope we can get some of our Fairey Fleet out and on the water later this year - or early next year, as when they are seen in action they often provoke others to make one too.......and at the moment their are no Swordsmen to be seen on our club lake!


Bob.



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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2020, 04:25:25 pm »

I was chatting to a chap at the club yesterday who has a number of Faireys. He has owned both the Aerokits and PC designs and says that he found the Aerokits to come upon the plane easier, I don't know why. Anyway preferring the Aerokits he has one which I've seen a couple of times. Trouble is our lake isn't really big enough for such large fast boats, it does handle well though.

In fact he's having my big 47" Huntsman 31 off me so I'm going to have to build an aft cockpit version now!

Sounds as though your build is coming together nicely now.

Chris
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2020, 04:55:56 pm »

I am struggling to make any sense of the "kit copy" templates at the moment Chris.


The Aerokits bulkhead shapes do have a steeper "V" and that may (possibly) be why that version of the Swordsman performs a little differently (better!), but the rough drawings that came with the eBay purchase of an Aerokits plan and template drawings are far from symmetrical, and have even have a different deck height (actually different from left to right!) to your really nice template drawings.


Were your drawings generated from the P Connolly plans by any chance?


I was hoping to use your good templates and just "graft on" the extended bulkhead tops to fit the fixed cabin sides but I think that the differences are too great to get away with that so I am trying to work out which side of the rough template drawing may fit the plan the best and which of the two heights of deck support (left or right!!) to use.


These drawings really are bad and totally unusable - other than as a "loose" reference to the bulkhead shapes.


Anyone who used these drawings and cut the wood would end up with a very distorted hull with odd height decks!


I would have though that if these rough shapes had been made by drawing around the kit parts (as suspected) that they would have been much better than this as my Aerokits Swordsman went together quite nicely. I wonder how many have been put-off of completing a Swordsman from these plans when confronted with non-fitting templates?


I have just come in from the workshop (shed) to take a break as I am finding this lack of accuracy and fit very frustrating. Maybe its a good job that it is not possible to send in an eBay  review of these plan drawings - as it would not be good!


A good set of bulkhead drawings to fit the Aerokits plans would be a godsend and would make life much easier.
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2020, 08:33:31 pm »

Hi Chris,


I have finally made some symmetric bulkhead templates based on the drawings that came with the Aerokits plan that I  bought from eBay - some of the drawings are not as bad as others (although none are that accurate) so the next step is to get some cut and see if the compromise that was necessary to make them symmetric will align correctly as I may need to do some re-working of the shapes before I get it right.


Although I really want this Swordsman to be a replica of my first ever r/c boat that was built from Aerokits, my next build will probably be based on the templates that you kindly sent to me as they are really well drawn and will fit together properly - and that would be nice.........


I need to eat more cereal as I am running out of template material  %)


Stay safe!


Bob.



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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2020, 09:22:05 pm »

It appears I spoke too soon Bob. I've commented a couple of times on this and other forums about the atrocious quality of the drawings that guy provides where others have had problems. He's been doing it for years for a number of boats and it's a real disservice to modellers. I can understand your frustration.

I did use the Aerokits drawing to do mine. I'll start having a look at the superstructure drawings as that might be of help to you in working out the shape of the top of the bulkheads, including that for the cabin and relative deck levels due to the shear.

Will have to be careful though because I have to print out at 133% to give 1:12. For some reason, which I forget now, when I scanned the drawing some years ago they came out smaller. Not a problem for me as I'm working off one drawing but could lead to inaccuracies for you as you are working off mine and the kit drawing.

Have you tried positioning my bulkheads against the kit side view to see how the deck, deck stringer, chine and bottom of keel compare?

Chris


Edit: I started my post before yours but was then interrupted by a late tea so some of what I've said may not apply now. Something else to check, apart from Bulkhead No. 1 which we know about, do the other bulkheads on my keel drawing match up with those on your kit drawing? Reason I ask is that obviously any difference will impact on the position of the deck, stringers and chine.


In theory  :-)  my drawings, apart from the roof of the aft cabin, should produce a model exactly as the Aerokits as that was the drawing I used for mine, notwithstanding the superstructure on mine lifts off.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2020, 09:47:49 pm »

This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.

Colin
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2020, 11:06:50 pm »

This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.

Colin


Hi Colin,


I think the Aerokits plans are accurate and not a problem, but the drawings that come with them that show the component shapes (when bought from eBay) are not produced by Aerokits, but by the seller, and these are not as accurate as they could be.


Now I have "twigged" I have made my own set of templates so the job should now be back on track.


I cut a new breasthook, and bulkheads B1 and B2 this evening and they fit each other nicely.  I also cut a pair of cabin sides (no windows at this stage) so as I cut the other bulkheads (B3, B4 & B5) I can double check to make sure there are no problems.


I had previously cut the keel and doublers etc direct from the plan and assembled them, so I am dry fitting the bulkheads to it as I go, and the Aerokits interlocking assembly method will self-align everything if I have made my symmetrical bulkhead templates OK.


As ChrisF said to me recently, we are in effect making "prototype" models - every one is slightly different and they all provide little challenges for us to resolve as we go - and that can sometimes be the most enjoyable part of the build.


I am hoping the last three bulkheads fit OK now, and if they don't, I will adjust them until they do.  The real test will be when they are all assembled on the keel and interlocked with the cabin sides and I check the alignment of the stringers to make sure all of the notches are holding them correctly so the lines flow as nicely as they should.


Its all good fun! 


Bob.


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DaveM

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2020, 11:14:31 pm »

This all sounds terribly hard work. Why not just buy the Sarik plans designed by Dave Milbourn and scale them up? Much more accurate.

Colin
Slight problem with that one, Admiral. The most recent Sarik plans are for a 1/12 scale Huntress (23") while this thread concerns a 1/12 Swordsman (33"). I did design a 24" Swordsman back when the year started with 19 but that was more or less a straight re-scale of the old Phil Connolly 1/12 Swordsman plan. My plan was a giveaway in MB but Phil's original plan is still available https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/fairey-marine-mm791/
Dave M



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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2020, 06:34:25 am »

Hi Zooma Bob

I have a PDF copy of the original Aerokits Swordsman if you require them.

Just message me and I will send over via We Transfer.

All free of course !!

Harry
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2020, 08:47:16 am »

I had this one in mind for upscaling  Dave. Am I wrong?

https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/swordsman-plan-mm2058/

Colin
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2020, 09:09:26 am »

This thread would be incomplete without the inclusion of DaveM's reference to the Swordsman as  "The Floating Country Cottage".


This made me smile when I first read it as I had never heard this before.


I wonder what they would call the stretched Super-Swordsman ..................?




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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2020, 09:15:11 am »

I had this one in mind for upscaling  Dave. Am I wrong?

https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/swordsman-plan-mm2058/

Colin
That's the one I did in 199frozen-to-death, Colin. John Elsy posted a very good build log of it on Mayhem a while back https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7668.0.html   I've no idea how 'scale' it is but it was scaled from Phillip C's plans, although the cockpit area is definitely not correct c/w the full-size and the access to the inside is via a small hatch in the roof and a larger one in the cockpit floor. The new SLEC kit @ 1/16 scale is much more accurate, having been basd on Fairey's own drawings. Nice to see there's still so much interest in what is now a classic.
Dave M
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