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[derekwarner]

Nick........if the NVQ qualification content is preparing persons with questionable understanding in quality matters, surely it is the Level of vocational qualification standards that is questionable. or and requires raising?

My reading of the British NVQ indicated attainmentof Levels NVQ1 to NVQ7, with the latter somehow equating to a Bachelor Degree, however it is a can of worms as those from pure academia tend not to accept the premiss

In fact, in Queensland it is possible to attain a University Degree in Mechanical Engineering without ever setting foot in an external engineering workshop

I favour a NVQ type of system running parallel with University studies, as I have personally witnessed a young Degree Graduate Engineer who could not assemble a relatively simple electro-mechanical Moog servo control valve, whereas an acquaintance [non Universtity], I consider to be an excellent hydraulic artisan with brilliant complex fault finding ability

Derek 

[raflaunches]

Hi Derek


I have no problems with getting qualifications whilst in training- I received a NVQ Level 3 in Aircraft Engineering and Maintenance during my time in training as part of the apprenticeship and then completed a BTEC in the same subject. My issue is that they are only training to complete the NVQ and not any military requirements. When I spoke to the instructors regarding why we weren’t using aircraft to train on the response is always because it’s not in the NVQ. The NVQ has got less requirements to achieve than what a group of engineers are expected to have in the real world. Essentially because it’s a college course they will not teach beyond its specification which is wrong. Many of the future technicians I have seen so far can barely hold spanners together as the physical requirements are being removed from the course because the ‘NVQ’ doesn’t say they need to actually do physical training- they just need a theory of it!
If this is happening in the section I’m in, then I dread to think what other sections and services are doing.

[roycv]

Hi Derek, as you know I have a computer background and after leaving work I did an NVQ1 in computer applications and it took a whole afternoon!  I went on through NVQ 2 and 3 with some teaching same on the way.  I kept a couple of lessons ahead but it does concentrate the mind!

Afterwards I found that I had been learning Lotus and Database IV and Wordperfect which had been superceded by Microsoft s/w.  When looking for work the agencies were unaware that the first 2 programmes were equally usable.  So no job followed, then I did C+ programming, no opportunities there either.

I then applied to be a Network manager and passed the quite difficult IQ tests, they finally admitted that they would not take me on as I was too old!  This was back in the days of the charming but inexperienced young things coming out of university in the mid 90s.  Previously I had interviewed them and even offered them jobs.  Very few impressed me!
I later did an NVQ 1 in Business German that took 3 months of work, but it was enjoyable once the idiots had left the class.

Coming out, purely in the travelling sense, next March to Oz.

Best regards
Roy

[Circlip]

How many sheets of paper showing academic qualifications does it take to twiddle a screwdriver.


 My ??????  of yesterday was a gender question now we a wokied to death.


  Regards  Ian.

[raflaunches]

One of the retention problems we had in the techie trades was qualifications or lack of. So we have knee jerk reactions to the new requirements. Problem is the RAF ignored some of the recommendations from the Hatton-Cave report which recommended all aircraft technicians were to have B1 and B2 licenses. They ignored this as it would be expensive and people would leave after the minimum time to work in airlines, etc. So NVQs were doubled down on as the best thing but they have gone too far in my opinion just concentrating on the NVQ instead of what’s important which is experience on aircraft. I teach a phase where we change an engine on a Tornado. By this stage they have been in trade training for about 9 months and is the first time they actually use a proper tool kit, and probably the last time before they leave five months later. They are often shocked that they can use extension pieces on top of each other and have never seen sockets or UJs! It’s a shame as much of the feedback we have from the trainees are that they enjoy the physical experience of an engine change but the Ofsted report says that the NVQ does not require this demonstration so they are considering removing it from the course! They need to go back to my era where we had a full exposure to physical work and theory but complete any qualification too. If we could do it 20 years ago then it can be done again.

[Circlip]

Physical work Nick? Just shows how far out of tune you are. Can't swing a spanner before digesting a manual on risk  assessment. Wonder what training and how long the guy winding  the garage doors open had to have before he was allowed to use the big red key on "Top Gun" at Lossiemouth episode 1 this week?


  Regards  Ian.

[KitS]

In my last job I was the company's Service Manager, and hired new engineers every 3-4 years. I worked with an MoD department that placed retiring military engineers in civvie street and found all my recruits to be excellent, but the best ones came from the Royal Navy.


That was for two or three reasons, one being their qualifications. The Navy ensured their trade qualifications were the equivalent of civvie grades, the Army system required their guys to take small additional level exams to be civvie equivalent, but the RAF qualifications weren't ratified by any civvie organisations and the poor retirees had to sit all their civvie exams again!


The other reasons the Navy guys worked better was that they were very used to sorting out any problem with little or no support from Head Office (the navy 'Head Office' was often thousands of miles away....) and their families were overjoyed to think they could be home almost every weekend, and not be away for months at a time. 

[tonyH]

In fact, in Queensland it is possible to attain a University Degree in Mechanical Engineering without ever setting foot in an external engineering workshop

Derek 

Is it not a bit irrational to carry on using the term "engineer" so widely and often without consideration when there are so many who spend all their time in front of a screen?  I know that to call someone a "mechanic" or a "technician" has become outdated but why have the titles seemingly been cheapened when they're the ones we need more than ever?

[Baldrick]

OK it's in the dim and distant path but when I was a Technical College     The  engineering courses amounted two, One was mechanical which involved hours of learning how to file a lump of steel flat and Building Engineering which could either be burning your extremities pot soldering lead pipework or brickwork which was mainly flinging morter across the classroom off the end of your trowel.   Those were the days

[Fastfaz]

  Greeting's everyone.
     I am a time served Carpenter/Joiner (not sure which applies but you had to be able to do both Carpentry and Joinery) who started as an apprentice in the sixties and extremely grateful to be classed as a "Tradesman", it was 5 years of learning including night school and eventually block release of 6 weeks x two to a Technical College i.e. back to school for 6 weeks x 2 each year. The apprenticeship covered all the relevant areas of the trade from hardwood church/bank fitting to concrete formwork but at the Tech everything had to be completed by hand (you had to use tools to a good standard), I managed to rise to City and Guilds level which, if I am honest made no difference to your pay or status you just needed to be able to do the task in hand. Now it seems that you can achieve "Tradesman" level in 6 months or 1 year although as I am led to believe, don't ask them to cut timber by hand or to plane a piece of timber with a handplane. I can teach anyone in 5 minutes how to use an Elu chopsaw the machinery does it for you try that in the middle of Wales with no electricity. I have no problem with technology or advancement in how we build or make anything but I am not sure that it's the right direction but hey I'm an Old fart.
         Rant over, soapbox put away.
                     Keep smiling people,
                         

[Baldrick]

  Greeting's everyone.
     I am a time served Carpenter/Joiner (not sure which applies but you had to be able to do both Carpentry and Joinery) who started as an apprentice in the sixties and extremely grateful to be classed as a "Tradesman", it was 5 years of learning including night school and eventually block release of 6 weeks x two to a Technical College i.e. back to school for 6 weeks x 2 each year. The apprenticeship covered all the relevant areas of the trade from hardwood church/bank fitting to concrete formwork but at the Tech everything had to be completed by hand (you had to use tools to a good standard), I managed to rise to City and Guilds level which, if I am honest made no difference to your pay or status you just needed to be able to do the task in hand. Now it seems that you can achieve "Tradesman" level in 6 months or 1 year although as I am led to believe, don't ask them to cut timber by hand or to plane a piece of timber with a handplane. I can teach anyone in 5 minutes how to use an Elu chopsaw the machinery does it for you try that in the middle of Wales with no electricity. I have no problem with technology or advancement in how we build or make anything but I am not sure that it's the right direction but hey I'm an Old fart.
         Rant over, soapbox put away.
                     Keep smiling people,
                         

Hi Fastfaz.   You must be as old as me , I also obtained City and Guilds and I think the qualification is still current . When I first started someone who had served a trade apprenticeship was referred to as a Journeyman until and when he became a Master.

In fact, the name “journeyman” is derived from the Latin diurnum, meaning “day” or “of one day.” The journeyman could be paid a daily wage, as he was now skilled enough to be hired and was ready to leave the shop of his master, taking day trips as necessary to perform his work.

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[Circlip]

Now that we've just had the yearly round of educational hysteria, I wonder how many trickcyclists are rubbing their hands at the prospects of consoling our children for their "Failure" to attain a piece of paper to ensure that they have been convinced they need to achieve a meaningful existence/life?


  Regards  Ian.

[Capt Podge]

Belfast maritime festival https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66746450


Aye,
Ray.

[roycv]

The previous posts on qualifications has been interesting.  Technically knowing principles is fine, as I rose a little in the computer industry I found understanding how something works is the requirement.  Customer Services was the repair end of the system.
Actually learning how to find a fault in a system does not seem to be taught.  Going into a garage and having a mechanic replace one part and hope for the best is not fault finding.
I have sat all night having a one way conversation with a 20 foot long computer, that was back in the early days.  Then the computers started internally recording little faults that could be got over without stopping the machine.  You could now interrogate a computer for internal errors. 
This was 30 years ago and now things have moved on but when things go wrong they are so complex that understanding how to fix it requires a highly trained person whose reasonable hourly rate exceeds the value of the in this case laptop / computer.  So the item gets thrown away.

The techniques of fault finding are useful in any area but are ignored as an area of expertise.

Then my personal problem was the effect that accountants have on the system.  I say this from many years of experience up to just a fortnight ago.

A regular open to the public track (trains) running day with a club I belong to.  I had met this charming family several times during the afternoon and they had enjoyed themselves.  They were saying their farewells and the man said "You could get much more for all this"! 
We charge a pound a ride which is about 7 minutes long and there are several different trains.  It is a managed but green area and we have a small lake, there are refreshments available and lots of places to sit and have a picnic.

I said that we just balance the books nicely without charging very much for visitors.  "Are you an accountant"?  "Yes" he said " How did you know"?
 
So maybe with his rules we would have been charging more getting less people visit and no better off!   It would eventually kill the society off completely. 

I think Oscar Wilde remarked about someone "He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing"

Roy

[Colin Bishop]

Well said Roy!

At the risk of dipping my foot into forbidden territory I would mention that our Prime Minister is an accountant.....

Colin

[Circlip]

Not many accountants were responsible for the creation of "The British Empire"   


  But they've certainly accelerated its demise. (As well as the Nanny state)


  Regards  Ian.


  Problem is of course, when we had an Empire, it gave us a guaranteed market to export whatever c**p we wanted.

[roycv]

Following up from my chat with the accountant.  We did talk for a while and i pointed out several problems I had seen with pareing back services and not allowing for a little 'fat' in the system he really did listen!  He seemed quite surprised at my viewpoint, he was also young enough to perhaps take it on board?

I recall when I worked we had an accountant suddenly appointed into the regional unit and he had 3 ladies who normally did the 'accounts'  such as they were and I had been in a management capacity for some time and knew them well.

One day they asked me to come and listen to their problem as I entered the door was shut and locked behind me!  They had been told that they were to have one of my trainees and things would work in a, to them, difficult way.
I listened and asked a few questions.  It was as I thought he literally would do the opposite of whatever you wanted and this had been true in my dealings with him.

So I said what is the last thing you want to happen?  They laughed and worked it out between them.  Now go and make that suggestion to him!  They looked at me most troubled.  I was at that time also 'The Problem manager', meaning I handled the problems not what you were thnking!
Trust me! 
So they went to him with this awful idea and as predicted he did the opposite and they got what they wanted!

I could do no wrong from then onward, it had to remain our secret though.

But the thing that annoyed was he was almost like the No.2 in the management set up and he had done nothing to earn the position.  I think some senior (to me) managers had seen through my ploy but thoughtfully said nothing.

When my son was at uni he had to take some extra units and I said do accountancy which he did.  He did not thank me for'wasting his time'.  Held a grudge for years but I said to him you know enough now to stop them conning you!

I know an unprintable story of one really unpleasant accountant I met.  What a b*****d he was! 

regards
Roy

[Baldrick]

  Portsmouth Dockyards reconstruction of a WW1 CMB torpedo boat has now taken to the water and run its sea trials . What chances for a set of modellers plans ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-66750401

[Circlip]

Mentioned before, there was a CMB in the warehouse that the bomb fell in on an episode of 'Foyles War', the one where the disposal squad found a stash of white fivers.


 Regards  Ian.

[JimG]

There was a set of scale drawings including sections in one of the editions of the Model Shipwright quarterly. I don't have the details handy at the moment but it was a reasonable size.
Jim

[Baldrick]

something along these lines would be interesting.
http://www.thornycroft40.co.uk/Finished%20model.htm

[Capt Podge]

Model ship from war zone to Cornwall
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-66720627


Ray.

[Capt Podge]

Here's one for the RNLI Enthusiasts:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67314176

Aye,
Ray.

[jaymac]

                             
     https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/mind-boggling-engineering-scheme-hinkley-8894764?IYA-mail=c34af496-9732-4870-806d-e6725f403a39

[jaymac]

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristols-caz-buster-unveiled-continues-8939345?IYA-mail=c34af496-9732-4870-806d-e6725f403a39


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