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[John W E]

what does the jury think about advertising of the shows?

Go back a few years we had a show at South Shields - we had three consecutive years of the show - and that was it - the first year, the attendance was pretty good, second year the attendance was poor and the third year it had fizzled to near enough nothing at all . Although I feel there were a lot of things to contribute to this failure - one of the main things that I feel was at fault was that the North East Clubs didn't advertise the show enough around the area in local press and on the radio before the show was in town.  We should have advertised the show at least a couple of months beforehand with fliers in shops, on buses, on the radio and in the papers etc., right across the North East to encourage the general public to come and see the models - to my knowledge it isn't done enough - the advertising seems to be kept within a group of modellers.

John

[Colin Bishop]

And the modelling magazines reach a much greater audience than do the model boating Forums.

I am glad I have got so many responses since starting this topic, all of them pretty thoughtful. If we can generally agree on what we want from a show then it makes the job of the organisers a lot easier in mounting a successful event.

Some of the things drawn out from the discussions are that:

Smaller events centred on trader open days are quite popular.
Traders should be encouraged to attend club events as it is a cheap option for them but this can be a bit hit and miss as traders cannot support everything and will have limited availability.
Larger regional shows should offer the following:
Ideally no more than 2 hours driving from the centre of their intended catchment area for day visitors.
A good selection of clubs
A good turnout of traders
A pool or other sailing water if possible
Adequate free or low cost parking
Entry fees that are perceived to be fair (although I think some people maybe need to be more realistic about this when large venues are being used)
Commercial organisers need to understand that model boaters generally, visitors and traders alike, are not especially affluent and that profit expectations should be set accordingly.
Decent food at reasonable prices - we don't all want to bring sandwiches on a day out.
If space permits then bringing in other types of modelling is always to be welcomed as is encourages a broader visitor base and thus attendance.

What have I missed?

Colin

[unbuiltnautilus]

It can come across as 'By modellers, for modellers' sometimes. At the Midhurst show in February, by 2.30pm, it is just exhibitors aimlessly walking about like a George A Romero zombie movie, looking for "Brains!"
I exaggerate ( a bit ). The big shows have the weight of an advertising budget behind them. Smaller shows need to get creative to attract punters. Facebook, posters at your local pond, talking to your local radio station, all help to spread the word in a less conventional way. I feel we modellers could help to promote events, even if we have no direct involvement in a show. Talk it up, too often people talk shows down, just because it let them down in their hunt for something, or there were less traders than last year, or the parking, weather, food, etc etc.......
It is in all our interests to encourage visitors to shows, more people through the gate and spending, the better for us all in the long term. I always say nice things about Warwick and encourage people to go. Two new visitors this year told me how much they were impressed with the event, after a typical, glowing recommendation from meself . This is why I have little tolerance for critics of shows, even if the events are just that bit far for me to attend, I respect and understand the effort that goes into staging them.

[cos918]

And the modelling magazines reach a much greater audience than do the model boating Forums.

I am glad I have got so many responses since starting this topic, all of them pretty thoughtful. If we can generally agree on what we want from a show then it makes the job of the organisers a lot easier in mounting a successful event.

Some of the things drawn out from the discussions are that:

Smaller events centred on trader open days are quite popular.
Traders should be encouraged to attend club events as it is a cheap option for them but this can be a bit hit and miss as traders cannot support everything and will have limited availability.
Larger regional shows should offer the following:
Ideally no more than 2 hours driving from the centre of their intended catchment area for day visitors.
A good selection of clubs
A good turnout of traders
A pool or other sailing water if possible
Adequate free or low cost parking
Entry fees that are perceived to be fair (although I think some people maybe need to be more realistic about this when large venues are being used)
Commercial organisers need to understand that model boaters generally, visitors and traders alike, are not especially affluent and that profit expectations should be set accordingly.
Decent food at reasonable prices - we don't all want to bring sandwiches on a day out.
If space permits then bringing in other types of modelling is always to be welcomed as is encourages a broader visitor base and thus attendance.

What have I missed?

Colin

What I would add a Pool/lake is a Must. I should be the centre of the show were the action is .
 At Warwick Steve Dean does an excellent job of structuring the sailing  by class of boat. So you get the lifeboats together, the warships , ferries etc. Then there are kids slots . and some club slots and a few free sailing slots . The public love to see boats sailing . On the last day of warwick show we managed to get Mick French 3m long QE2 with Paul Chilcots big Liner . only 2 boats on the water put it drew in a big crowd .
I find it sad when you go to a model boat show and see a pathetic little pool stuck in the corner .


john   

[Colin Bishop]

I'm afraid you can't specify a pool as a must John.

If you have an outdoor one (or lake) then it is subject to the vagaries of the weather and there is a good chance that the running programme will be disrupted in our wet climate. Better than nothing but not really ideal.

Once you bring it indoors a lot of other caveats apply. Will the floor loading be adequate in technical terms for example and then there are insurance issues. Many venues will not permit indoor pools in case of leakage/collapse. When the Model Engineer Exhibition first moved to Sandown Park a ground floor pool was permitted for the first year but after that the insurers said no.

And then only model boaters need a pool, not the aircraft, tank or other branches of modelling so the venue will not normally be willing to provide store and maintain a portable pool for maybe one event a year. So it has to be supplied by a third party (insured of course) so who will that be? The third party will then need to maintain, transport and probably erect and take down the pool at each venue - there is a cost there too.

Many years ago when the Model Engineer Exhibttion was held at Seymour Hall in London the venue included a swimming pool which was ideal and there are other shows which also had this option although I don't know of any at present.

These things are never simple.

Colin

[Shipmate60]

It would be an advantage to have a "Southern" show.
Now that Beale is a lot smaller and Brighton and Weymouth has gone surely there must be an apertite for a local "Southern" show with traders.


Bob

[carlmt]

If Beale get their act together, there is no reason it cannot become the 'Southern' show..........

[ballastanksian]

The pool, at the last Shepton Mallet show did indeed collapse and threatened to flood the sports hall where the little aircraft and Model Trucks were being below the pool in altitude. I can see why venues/insurers are wary of them. Still, I agree that any show with a model boat section should have a reasonable pool to demonstrate them in their medium. Live steam will have a track and RC aircraft such as the small depron foam ones will have an area set up for them so why is it beyond the skills of organisers and insurers to agree on a design of pool that is safe and sound?

The pool at Brighton Modelworld as well as those at Blackpool and Warwick demonstrated what can be done by those who use common sense and experience.

[tigertiger]

I don't think anyone is saying that the pool can't be done. But it does seem clear that it is problematic, and could not really be a must have.


On the question of advertising. Even for a limited poster/flyer campaign, that can cost a bit and it is very indiscriminate.
Local radio and local rags are usually desperate for stories. If you can get them to do a story before the event, and not reporting on it after the fact, that can help and is free. You need to create a story about the club, provide photos/photo ops, to be a story as lead in to the upcoming show. Most journalists are too busy and making instant content for them also helps. If local newspapers have comments section, you can also create chatter about a local show among club members, e.g. someone posts a bogus question like, 'Does anyone know of any local boat clubs or shows this summer?', to start the chatter.


We can also be our worst enemies, even on this forum. There was someone who used to really push a local show, with all vigour. Result, some people used to complain about it.


I also think that there are many more opportunities to cross pollinate with other branches of modelling. There may not be a model boat show in the south, but I would bet that there are other model shows; some of whom would welcome the extra variety. Some of the traders also have a obvious crossover that would build their business (3D printing, resin casting, figures, electronic components, etc.). We have many members on here who do other kinds of modelling, perhaps they know more of the show scene for their other disciplines.


I don't have time to follow other model forums, but RCGroups caters to all kinds of models. Other sites may be promoting other kinds of model shows, it may be worth contacting the organisers of those shows. This could even be done by individual model boat clubs. Basically, any exposure of model boats to a wider audience, especially other modellers, can only be good.

[Tug Chief]

As above..

Interesting take, I well understand the reasoning behind some of the BS that is spouted, but you put one term in your statement that sums it all up completely;  WHY SHOULD YOU BE ALLOWED!  Errr, because they are my models, it is my choice when I come and go and as we are not being paid then we should be give the freedom to decide what we want to do!  Last time I attended I did not see people being press ganged into shows!


Is it really worth losing models for 90% of the show just because someone does not attend as the want/have to leave one hour before closing?  I think not, but each to their own.


I agree with the number of boats and I would never present 20 if some one with one or two was short of space, that is absolutely obvious.  But then again how many times have you seen club with massive tables and about three boats scarcely scatter on it whilst others giving a good display and tight on space?  Flexibility and adaptability for the best overall result is the key, not; Dis is your space, you will sit on dis seat for 8 hours, you will sail when you are told to sail and you will look happy whilst doing it!


If the 'paying public' are so important to the organisers that we MUST attend and we must do this and that then maybe the organizers could give something back, maybe a free cup of tea or a bacon sandwich instead of stinging you as the captive attendee as you are!


There will always be different view points but a little bit of gratefulness and humbleness for people making the effort to make any show what they are is always appreciated and not treating people as they are an employee of the show would make for an around better atmosphere.

[malcolmfrary]

Having an indoor pool is tricky.  At the Tower we had the Circus arena with the floor lowered, so it was built into the building. In the Olympia we borrowed pools from other clubs.  They both had minor leaks, but the floor was really an outdoor paved surface with a building over it.  Similar at the Norcalympia, concrete floor.  We did have a disaster the first year of the "new" pool, but this was rectified with a proper liner. 
And for pools more than 16 feet across, getting (a bigger one can not be got using sheet from standard width rolls without having a specialist producing waterproof seams) and handling the liner (if it can stand being handled a few times, they get HEAVY) is the big problem along with filling and draining.  If you have a 20 foot square pool one foot deep, thats about 20 tons of water to shift.  I can well understand venue owners being wary of pools if the hall has a wooden floor.
Indoor swimming pools have their own problems.  I well recall a bitter complaint at one venue that "It was hot and smelt of chlorine".  But that might have been somebody who needed something to complain about.

[TheLongBuild]

.  I well recall a bitter complaint at one venue that "It was hot and smelt of chlorine".  But that might have been somebody who needed something to complain about.

Bet the water was wet as well !!

[TheLongBuild]

Interesting take, I well understand the reasoning behind some of the BS that is spouted, but you put one term in your statement that sums it all up completely;  WHY SHOULD YOU BE ALLOWED!  Errr, because they are my models, it is my choice when I come and go and as we are not being paid then we should be give the freedom to decide what we want to do!  Last time I attended I did not see people being press ganged into shows!

If the 'paying public' are so important to the organisers that we MUST attend and we must do this and that then maybe the organizers could give something back, maybe a free cup of tea or a bacon sandwich instead of stinging you as the captive attendee as you are!

No one is being press ganged into shows At the end of the day if you agree to  attend the show as an exhibitor/trader you agree to the terms and conditions, End off. If you do not wish to display for the 2/ 3 days as in Warwick then don't display.


I can not comment for other shows but at the Convention if you are displaying you get free entry into the show.
I have not been able to attend both days in the past, I just get someone to bring / take my models instead.


I do not know if you have organised shows such as Warwick, Blackpool or the Boat Convention , but if it was run the way you suggest Then I would imagine it would be a free for all with no real security as to boats disappearing off displays.


No one is saying you have to stay with your boat as most clubs organise a rota to man the stands so that you can view the show,also some people bring their boats and then go.
 

[Colin Bishop]

There is a loan class at the Model Engineer Exhibition. Boats are booked in along with the competition classes on the day before and booked out immediately after closing time on the last day. You cannot retrieve your boat without the ticket you were issued with when you brought it along for security and insurance reasons.

It has been that way for umpteen years and  I have never known anyone to complain, rather the opposite.

If you just want to turn up with a boat and run it then many club open days are perfectly OK with this although there is usually a time slot system to give everyone a turn. Your boat is your responsibility throughout and no display space will necessarily be allocated.

Colin

[NFMike]

Well we seem to have reached the point in the thread where the current way things are done is as good as it can be and everyone should be happy. But as in the original post I suspect footfall will continue to fall and the long term future must be in doubt.

Most models (shows) need a dynamic aspect - trains and vehicles is easy, planes not too bad, boats ... Argh. So maybe boat shows should start with the water instead of trying to tack it on later. Many hotels have pools, so, as done in post #54, try and find one who will let you use the pool for boats and hold the exhibition there.

[Colin Bishop]

Not all model boats float though. At the Society of Model Shipwrights exhibition which has my report in the December edition of Model Boats, most of the exhibits were static models. (As of course were those at the recent Scale Model World at Telford.

Colin

[tigertiger]

On a personal note. I am not sure that the dynamic element is important for everyone. I know it is for some, but not for me.
The last show I went to, I spent the time walking around the stands, looking at how the models were constructed. I learned some new ways of re-purposing household items, including old bra clips as runners for sails. I got to chat with several of the traders, and got to look closely at some new models. I also got to see a range of new fittings and was impressed by  the number of cottage industry type suppliers, and their offerings.
There was also the pool, which was exciting for some to sail their models, but as a spectator, I soon lost interest. I would much rather watch boats on a pond, than in a swimming pool. I think I stayed for about 5 minutes, and then went for a bacon sandwich, and then back to the exhibitors hall.

[phil_parker]

Pools are nice, but are they nicer than trade stands or club displays? Thinking of Coleville, a pool the size of Warwick would require losing most of the stands with boats on. Then where do you find the boats to put on the water?

Water is also tricky to arrange, and out of the question on a carpeted or wooden floor where a significant leak could do some very expensive damage. I'm sure some hotels do have pools but those are for guests and I can't see any of them being keen to shut off something people have paid for so a boat show can use it. You'll also have to find one with a pool AND sufficient comference space for the rest of the event. How much will this cost? About the same as any other conference centre for a weekend - £lots.

I appreciate a pool but would rather a show with no pool than no show at all.

[phil_parker]

Interesting take, I well understand the reasoning behind some of the BS that is spouted, but you put one term in your statement that sums it all up completely;  WHY SHOULD YOU BE ALLOWED!  Errr, because they are my models, it is my choice when I come and go and as we are not being paid then we should be give the freedom to decide what we want to do!  Last time I attended I did not see people being press ganged into shows!

Is it really worth losing models for 90% of the show just because someone does not attend as the want/have to leave one hour before closing?  I think not, but each to their own.

I agree with the number of boats and I would never present 20 if some one with one or two was short of space, that is absolutely obvious.  But then again how many times have you seen club with massive tables and about three boats scarcely scatter on it whilst others giving a good display and tight on space?  Flexibility and adaptability for the best overall result is the key, not; Dis is your space, you will sit on dis seat for 8 hours, you will sail when you are told to sail and you will look happy whilst doing it!


If the 'paying public' are so important to the organisers that we MUST attend and we must do this and that then maybe the organizers could give something back, maybe a free cup of tea or a bacon sandwich instead of stinging you as the captive attendee as you are!

There will always be different view points but a little bit of gratefulness and humbleness for people making the effort to make any show what they are is always appreciated and not treating people as they are an employee of the show would make for an around better atmosphere.

The paying public generally pay the same to come in during the last afternoon of a show as they start of day 1. They can reasonably expect that there are stands full of boats rather than empty tables just because people decided to go home when they get bored.

Supply a boat and you get in for free as far as I know. If you decide to clear off after a couple of hours, how is this fair? And there would be people who would do this - cheap rubbish boat on the stand to save the ticket price, do the shopping and gone.

Maybe I've been lucky with shows. Attending as a group allows for plenty of time off to see the rest of the show (Which show says "you will sit on dis seat for 8 hours"?). I've also not seen nearly empty tables, in fact my usual complaint is the tables are too packed with models to see each one properly. I'd hope that clubs not filling the space don't get asked back next year.

If you don't want to exhibit following the rules then don't bother. Maybe we miss you, maybe we don't. For the paying public, we need to put on a professional display even if it isn't quite so convienient for us.

[TheLongBuild]

Many hotels have pools, so, as done in post #54, try and find one who will let you use the pool for boats and hold the exhibition there.

I know some have in the past but I doubt very much that any Hotel would let you use their pool for boats nowadays, boats are sailed in all sorts of waters and pollutants, blue green algae etc Oils in prop shafts , paint, Lead paint on some older boats. As these pools are for the guests I would not allow it or at least not without a big premium on the cost so that the water could be fully turned over for filtering. In our pool if someone does the old number 2, or has a nose bleed the pool has to be shut for 12-24 hours. 
Again Our main pool costs over £ 100.00 an hour to hire for private use..so for an average 2 day hire £ 1600 pounds !!

[g6swj]

My post is not well thought through  - just dumping some thoughts, hopefully not stepping on any toes!

Take a venue like Wicksteed Park - where Mayhem is hosted once a year.

It has:

• Car parking
• Toilets
• Refreshments
• Camping
• A large boating pond
• Kids  adventure park
• Conference/wedding room facilities - no idea how much these cost to hire but I have been in them when being used as an antiques fair and it seemded pretty big
• Large grounds that could accomodate a marquee (again no ideas how much these cost to hire - no doubt eye wateringly expensive)
• Good access
• And most importantly a large footfall of public

So would this type of venue be ideal for a "MODEL" show combined with other types of models - lots of space outside for RC buggies/tanks etc
I appreciate that Mayhem held once a year is a very relaxed, informal affair - could it also be a boat show with traders and club displays etc in the conf/banqueting rooms or would that undermine the concept of Mayhem@Wicksteed park.

Costs may kill this one stone dead - just putting it out there as an idea....
Regards
Jonathan

[Subculture]

I know some have in the past but I doubt very much that any Hotel would let you use their pool for boats nowadays

Considering the sort of 'pollutants' that some individuals, especially kids do in pools, I would think model boats are pretty benign in comparison!

[TheLongBuild]

Considering the sort of 'pollutants' that some individuals, especially kids do in pools, I would think model boats are pretty benign in comparison!

And pools if this is seen ( as in not No 1s ) !! get shut down for a cleansing period.

[Subculture]

I was thinking of no.1s.

[TheLongBuild]

I was thinking of no.1s.