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[griffin]

Hello

I am currently researching for a BBC2 series titled "What the 20th Century did for us" presented by James May from top gear. One of the programmes is on the history of warfare and we are really interested in doing something on dazzle camouflage (strikingly bright camouflage schemes used on warships in WWI to fool submarines). If anybody has either a WWI or WWII model warship with dazzle camouflage or know of anybody who might have please let me know. Alternatively we are looking for any volunteers willing to let us paint their boats in a dazzle camouflage pattern and film them for the programme.

I would be very gratefull for any help or information you could give me.

Chris Cox

BBC White City

[John W E]

Hi there Chris

I am not sure if you have seen the other posting/thread regarding the BBC requiring models of dazzle camouflage??

If you note the responses by the members of our Forum - and speaking for oneself before I would venture anywhere near this offer - I would need some guarantees cast in stone - and I wont speak for the rest of the Forum, but, I am sure they would feel the same. :-\

Aye
JOHN E
BLUEBIRD

[PSSHIPS]

In my opinion and having had some experience with tv type people, cash up front or no deal, springs to mind.
 Paul...

[Roger in France]

Chris,

Make sure you read the earlier posts on this Forum as they may explain why Members of this Forum are less than eager to readily respond.

I am sure it is not you, personally or just the BBC but those of us who have had some experience of working with media folk, feel we have far too frequently been abused. We know you have deadlines and you have no room for prima donna amateurs, however, the time wasting; unfulfilled promises and - above all - the apparent belief (of your colleagues) that everyone wants to make themselves available to the media freely and willingly has made us reticent.

Of course there are the sad fools who will do anything to get their name in lights.

I have had experience in several different fields than modelling.

Nobody expects to make a fortune, most of us are helpful and never expect payment but what we will not accept is a lack of care.

Roger in France.

[kayem]

From my own experience of working with TV & media people, there's an old Yorkshire motto that sums up their attitude pretty well.

Ear all, see all, say nowt.

Ate all, sup all, pay nowt.

And if tha ever does owt fer nowt, allus do it for thissen.

I was going to add "Once bitten", but thinking back, I've been bitten by them several times, and now I've learned my lesson at last.

No thanks.

[griffin]

While I cannot comment on people's experiences on programmes in the past dazzle camouflage is something that we are really keen to demonstrate and any help or cooperation in getting this to work on screen would be greatly valued. While I can't make any specific guarantees I think this would be a great opportunity to get your boats on TV and to shed come light on an aspect of naval history which is relatively unknown to the general public. Also if people are worried about us painting directly on to the boats we are more than happy to use some sort of protective covering .

Thanks

Chris Cox

[tigertiger]

...if people are worried about us painting directly on to the boats we are more than happy to use some sort of protective covering .

 ??? ::)

[anmo]

And I think that one short sentence told us all we needed to know......

[PSSHIPS]

Dear Mr Chris Cox, although some of us would probably like to help, not including me, after the "Massive engines" fiasco I was involved in, NO BODY will allow you to mess with their models as each member of this forum or the builders of such models would not like any kind of re painting or protective covering of some type being applied to their "pride and joy" that they have taken in some cases years to build, it looks like you may be out of luck here, anyway.
 What happened to the BBC modelling department? Do they cost too much?
 Paul.

[John W E]

hey Wetwater

we are more than happy to use some sort of protective covering .

CONDOM !   ::)

is that as in SAFE SEXy razzle dazzle em camouflage sailing 

aye
John E
BLUEBIRD

[anmo]

we are more than happy to use some sort of protective covering .

CONDOM !   ::)

Or to put it another way, your models will be ****ed.

[J.beazley]

Going on fellow members comments and advice which has always been pretty spot on, im not up for repainting my Schutze.
dont get me wrong im young and havent had experiance with the media like other modellers have, thus going on the basis of good knowledge from others im not kean to involve my Schutze.

On the other hand im all ears on what EXACTLY the bbc intend to do with model boats in regards to painting, travel and filming etc...


Jay

[justboatonic]

Why is there such animosity towards the bbc's request? Dont understand it really! Just asking so dont shoot me!

[PSSHIPS]

Its not just the BBC, any people in the media that I have had dealings with as others here, have all had bad experiences, they promise to cover your costs and don't, let alone playing with and repainting your models????

 My advice is, DON'T!

 They play with your head, wipe your batteries out, soak your radio gear, cover your boat only VERY breifly and then pooh on you afterwards.

 THEY just use you like a tool to do their job. There is no respect, because they think that us modellers are some kind of weird sandwitch/ annorak type of thing and not a person.

 I hope this helps.

 I would go further, but, do not want to get banned again for speaking the truth.

 Paul...

[John W E]

Why is there such animosity towards the bbc's request? Don't understand it really! Just asking so don't shoot me!

Hi, last night I invited a friend who is a well-known historian to view this topic on the Forum as a guest to read this topic.  He is currently involved in a project with the BBC which is due out in March on the anniversary of the St Nazaire Raid.  His advice and STRONG ADVICE to all - 'when dealing with any form of media was first of all get your finance agreed and in writing - then in amongst the finance agreement there have to be Clauses that cover your time/models'.   

As PSSHIPS states the media, as do a few other people, tend to view us as 'weird anoraks' and not people who can transform written literature and drawings into a solid object for the rest of the public to see.   The media do not understand the skills that are required by we as modellers and the patience and time we spend on our hobby and modelling.

Aye
John E
BLUEBIRD

[OMK]

As PSSHIPS states the media, as do a few other people, tend to view us as 'weird anoraks' and not people who can transform written literature and drawings into a solid object for the rest of the public to see.

And there, gentlemen, is the Achilles heel.
So rather than sound alienated, why not turn this to your advantage? Griffin might actually get to learn something. The public might then have the chance to see the sort of stuff, as Bluebird rightly noted, just aren't seeing .

I'm on the same fence as J.Beaz'. I'm more interested in finding out just what he's actually doing.
Can you not write some clause whereby he and his crew have access to your boats, but they HAVE to have another crew filming THEM? That way he gets what he wants, and Joe public gets to see that you're not from planet GOG after all.

I say give the man a chance. And if he's listening, I'd wager he's just as intrigued in dazzle camolflage as most probably are. I'd also wager he'd probably make a cock-up at the first attempt when playing with that so-called dazzle stuff. I mean, aren't you curious as to what is involved?
So I say to Griffin...
They'll have you keel-hauled if you mess up. I've got an old seaframe which maybe you ought to experiment with first. It's not a warship, but it is expendable. She's yours as long as you post photos of what that camoulflage process involves.

But hang on...
if your camoulflage experiment does work, then how would we know if we couldn't see it?


Best of British luck.

[Roger in France]

Some of you chaps just don't get it. I suspect it is those who have no experience of working with media folk. Those of us who have cooperated with the media have been abused time and time again.

They promise and promise and seldom deliver. They ignore your demands (even when put into writing) and seem to have the attitude "You're going to sue...huh!".

Some examples; [1] I have spent hours and hours of my time recording for TV only for the items never to be used. [2] One interview I did for radio was so extensively edited and introduced with an addition from another studio which was so inflammatory that I was told by a major company they were going to sue me. The BBC would not even provide me with a copy of the original recording I had made, so I could demonstrate that the slander was not of my making. [3] I loaned some of my firms valuable equipment to a TV Chanel who lost it. I had to get my folk to go with our van and camp at the studio door to get it back. [4] I used to do some children's charity work. I helped organise a Christmas Party for 100 orphans. The TV guys asked to film it but arrived late and wanted the children - in their party clothes, without coats to go outside in very bad weather and then come back into the hall to be filmed ariving. When I said "No" the TV crew thought I was uncooperative.

OK, having said all that, the broadcast media is a highly effective way to communicate simple messages and the BBC produce some excellent, factual material (you should compare French TV!!!!). Cooperate if you will and please come back and tell us all it was a valuable, fulfilling and comfortable experience. I promise to listen.

Roger in France.

[griffin]

Hello Again

Thanks to everyone who has expressed interest in the project so far I really appreciate your knowledge and advice. Judging people's comments I think I need to explain exactly what we intend to show in the programme. The idea is to demonstrate the effectiveness of dazzle camouflage by filming dazzle warships in the water. After looking at lots of photographs from WW1 I'm still not convined that dazzle camouflage really worked. The Idea is that if we film the models from the perspective of any enemy boat we could prove their effectiveness. My "plan A" so to speak is to use warships that have already been dazzle camouflaged by the owner, we would only look to paint boats if this option fails. If we did have the boats painted they would be done by model boat professionals and not by ourselves.The owners would be with the boats at all times and we would not do anything without their consent. Filming takes place in March and although we aim to shoot as close to owners homes as possible we would pay expenses if any travelling became necessary.

Thanks again

Chris Cox

[tigertiger]

For a fairly realistic simulation.
You could always paint a flat at about 100th scale, mount it at water surface level on a large lake (or strap it to a cheap boat nobody cares about or even a raft), photograph with a camera at water level, from say 100m, which would be a scale distance of 10km (6miles approx).
Bear in mind that 6 miles is no distance at sea.
The only thing you would loose with a flat, is the depth and shadows caused by the superstructure.


As you may already know the role was not always to hide the ship as such. One intersting fact I learned recently was that dazzle was used to hide the shape of of a ship. So the side could look like the front of a ship, or appear to be at an oblique angle. Therefore the true direction of a ship was masked. This made it difficult to shoot at (and hit) if engaged.

I imagine this would be hard to represent on a two dimensional TV screen, but overlaying graphics to show vectors (and percieved vectors) may be a suitable way to demonstrate this,

[malcolmfrary]

I bet the assumtion on the program will be that the ship should more or less vanish as a result of camouflage.  The more usual intention was to ensure that the guy looking through the periscope would have trouble figuring the speed and heading long enough to make setting up a torpedo launch ineffective.  If the solution was not available before the target was away, the camoflage had done its job.
Of course, there is the Mountbatten Pink scheme, which was supposed to be very effective at dawn, and the western approaches scheme, which by repute enabled a destroyer to vanish in mist.  (Both WW2)
Does anybody know the actual colours used in WW1?  I dont think anything wsa preserved, colour photography was not invented, and there might not be any paintings done from life.

[A Model World]

I thought it worthy of mention that we are happy to support Chris and have done so in another area he has been involved in and if we had dazzle painted boats available we would have been happy to help them with this, the boats in the last instance were in our hands at all times no damage not even the possibility of it and our guy was looked after. Plus it gets the hobby noticed and recognition for a very specialist area here boats and dazzle camouflage
Trying to locate but doesn't something called Marcel models do a card one ?       

[ron h]

Anything like this, 

[BarryM]

Gents,

The area in which Mr Cox is consistently evasive is to spell out the terms on which any assistance would be recompensed. A vague reference to expenses is simply not good enough. Details of a firm dayrate, expenses, schedule of payments, compensation for model damage etc.  and - best of all - money up front would do wonders for his credibility. Does this sound ovet the top? - It may, but then I too have experience of the media and I wouldn't give them any credit either.

Barry M

P.S. If all he's trying to do is establish the performance of dazzle camouflage then any good book on the history of camouflage will tell him that.

[Colin Bishop]

Anything like this

No, like this!

[John W E]

hi there all

After the Admiral posted the picture of the dazzle camouflage Ive been going through several naval books which I have which deal mainly with WWI ships.

I have come across very few black and white photographs of ships painted in the dazzle camouflage.  One which you can make out properly though is HMS Furious in 1918.   The other one I came across was of a sinking merchant ship painted in this camouflage.  So, I dont think there is much documentation with photographs of the WWI ships in this camouflage, although I havent done a websearch myself yet.

It could become a very interesting topic this one, but, the media would have to pay all of us on the Forum REALLY WELL for any information that we dig up  perhaps a full Futaba Robbe F14 each 

Aye
John E
BLUEBIRD