Topic: Handmade steam engines.... on a budget (Read 53739 times)

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #50 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:44:49 am »

Im happy people are interested, makes a change to the 'what size propeller' and 'paint peeling off' thread i suppose.
Nick thanks for those links. I saw some hit n miss engines at a steam rally i went to in lincoln, theyre very interesting. The variable timing on on the valves is somewhat far to complex to achieve with hand tools I think. A more sensible solution would be the flame eater but a) i have an understanding but not a solid grasp of how they work like i do i petrol engines and b) I dont like them lol.
Im thinking and i must stress that im only thinking at this stage, to get over and around the carburettor issue it wont have one, it will be ran on butane gas. I will use the internals of a butane candle lighter. The engine speed wont be variable it will just run. The butane gas flow will be varied to suit the fuel consumption of the engine by simply setting the flame height switch on the candle lighter to control fuel flow. The jet of butane will directly injected into the intake port of the engine. Ill strip the ignition from the lighter and operate the switch via a lobe of the camshaft, if that doesnt work ill bend my head round some kind of magneto. The valves well i have some countersunk 3mm allen bolts, i test fitted them in a peice of 1/4 pipe and sucked threw the pipe, they closed and made a good seal, probaly make a nice check valve aswell but thats something else. Ill need a 2:1 gear drive to operate the cam too. Its buildable but weather it will run is a different matter.

Jerry C · « **Reply #51 on:** October 29, 2012, 12:47:41 pm »

Too right we're interested! Every new build flabbers my gast. What you achieve with hand tools is laudable. Each error compounds but somehow you manage to work everything back towards correct. I wish I could. The proof is in the YouTube, they work. Cheers me up no end.
Respect,
Jerry.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #52 on:** October 29, 2012, 02:04:18 pm »

Quote from: Jerry C on October 29, 2012, 12:47:41 pm

Each error compounds but somehow you manage to work everything back towards correct.

eh ?

Im not sure i understand what youve just said lol. Do you mean when i go TU i seem to get it fixed?

Jerry C · « **Reply #53 on:** October 29, 2012, 05:15:46 pm »

Precisely. Or not
Jerry.

frazer heslop · « **Reply #54 on:** October 29, 2012, 08:01:26 pm »

Hi Mike, This thread you have constantly amazes me in the way you over come problems I know I could not build with hand tools only

Have a look on the Jan Ridders site he has some great animations and some great ideas I have built a few of his engines but still think some of the best flame lickers are the Phill Duclos and Senfits Poppin its the simple valve that makes them great runners the only negative flame lickers dont have a lot of power
best wishes
frazer

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #55 on:** October 30, 2012, 10:38:43 pm »

I googled those engines and funnily enough i found a post on the mamod forum of your engines. I dont know I just dont seem to be enthused by sterling engines and flame eaters. Nothing wrong with them of course but they dont spark my imagination. I am mightily impressed by your build quality of your engines though and even if i did have the machinery yes theyd probably work but no way would it look nice on the mantle peice lol. If you had a go at building an engine from hand tools you will most likely be able to do it, just as long as you dont mind it looking a bit rough.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #56 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:27:39 am »

While im trying figure out how im going to build a 4 stroke engine, ive working on another little engine project. I got this sussed when i was experimenting with plastic card engines back when i first made a successful breakthrough. This time ill go into what it is im actually doing rather than just demonstrating the result when ive finished. Now one thing i have to point out is that when building any of these engines, at the time of their construction i had no idea if they would work or not. Therefore i do not invest vast amounts of time or money into them just in case. So what you may follow now, may not actually work in the end lol

Here goes
My idea is to make an engine with incorperates both the crankshaft and valves into one peice. There are many examples of them in there various guises this is how im building mine, i dont work from plans but go by feel, following plans doesnt work for me as its nearly impossible to mark and cut out with the handtools exact dimensions specicated by drawings. Sometimes i may use a certain dimension where parts need to be replicated or be specific but overall its kind of a that'l do afair.
With out the ability to bore my own cylinders or turn my own pistons im limited to two sizes or cylinder. Either 12mm round bar in in a 1/2 inch tube or a 9/32 bar in a 8mm tube. They fit nearly perfectly bordering on the edge of being a little over tight but easily fixable. For this engine im going with the 12mm bore like on my beam engine:

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #57 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:31:48 am »

I need an end cap for the cylinder and simply a slice of the round bar pushed and soldered in the end is more than adequate. However it needs a steam hole and a half round groove in it for my 8mm tube to sit in. The steam hole is 3mm in diameter which i feel is fine and the groove is filed with simply hand files and gauged against the 8mm tube for fit.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #58 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:39:02 am »

The 8mm tube has then 3 holes in it. The central hole will have the cylinder end cap fitted over it, the hole in the end cap lined up with the centre hole in the tube and then the cylinder pushed over the end cap. The other holes are 1/8, they just 1/8 because thats what thin pipe i have left. These holes are actually marked out and spaced evenly as best as i can. I simply file a slight flat spot on the round part i want to drill, mark out and then dont punch. I allways dot punch and pilot hole first.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #59 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:44:51 am »

I next arranged the parts for soldering. Ive also made some short cuts of 1/8 pipe, these pipes are the exhaust and inlet for the steam. The silicone tube from the boiler will push over these and which ever pipe is used for steam inlet will determine the direction of the engine. I try to solder as many parts in one go as i can this stops bits falling apart but i sometimes i have to make a bit of a jig. The drill bits in the tubes keep the holes in the 8mm tube and the 1/8 tubes aligned and stop them blocking up with leaky solder going astray:

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #60 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:53:33 am »

Before i started soldering it had occured to me that my current layout of my engine would have detrimental effects on the operation of the conrod and crank. There fore one side of the 8mm tube was completely cut off and only the single side with a single 1/8 tube remained. You will see why later. It also deemed necessary to think of someway of mounting the engine, a peice of 1/8th by 1/2 inch brass flat was fixed in my vice and they rest balanced on top as square and best placed i could manage.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #61 on:** October 31, 2012, 12:59:05 am »

I then proceeded soldering the parts togeather. I use soft solder, it does the job just fine for what i want, sometimes parts fall apart but ive managed to work out methods where such occurances are rare. Such as soldering all parts within close proximity at once. I have a nice gas soldering iron but i recently purchased a cheap blow torch to experiment making a gas burner with. Its parts wernt sufficient for a making a burner but the blow torch does come in handy as a blow torch of all things

.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #62 on:** October 31, 2012, 01:17:10 am »

The bit of flat brass that the engine sits on is too long on one side, this will be cut of later. It is left long during soldering so that the heat generated by the torch wont dissipate into the vice before the metal is hot enough to solder. I could use a bigger torch but id end up setting my work board or the dining room table alight. As you can see there is also another mistake, the pipe which the steam pipes fits onto has moved and thus now not point vertical as i intended. Never mind though it will still do its purpose.
Anyway the next part I worked on is the valve it self. Im using the 9/32 round bar for this bit and it fits nicely inside the 8mm tube on the engine. Two notches are marked out and cut out of the bar on either side in a staggered formation. How it will work is the crank lobe whatever its called cant remember will be connected to the end of this bar. The bar with its notches will be fitted inside the 8mm tube and the notches in the bar will align with the holes i made earlier. The piston will be above the notched bar valve and steam will force it upwards, this will pull the crank beneath it and since the crank id connected to the valves will time the inlet and exhaust. The engine will be single acting, you will see what i mean later. This is as far as I have got so far but ill update when ive done more.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #63 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:05:47 pm »

I received my new fly wheel, well wheels today from frazer and they're just grand. I tried them out on my 3 cylinder self starting radial and they fit like a tailored glove. They did as was intended perfectly and a vast improvement over my usual maccano sprocket fly wheel.
Despite this added bonus however i have grately over estimated the usabilty of my engine and doesnt produce the torque required to turn a prop like i thought it would. I attached the engine to a propshaft and 40mm 3 blade prop, i then ran the prop in the sink. The thrust was frankly pathetic and have experienced more forward movement farting in the bath, I tried a hydro prop 37.5mm and although the trust slightly improved the engine barely turned over beyond 120 rpm. I was not expecting the engine to run at supersonic speeds nor move the earth but was hoping that it could turn a 50mm 3 blade prop with a steepish pitch so at least some thrust could be derived from it to use in a tug. I further tested the engine on a steam cleaner with an operational pressure of 3 bar, unloaded the engine must have turned over in excess of 2000 rpm and the with the hydro prop connected and in the sink the thrust was equal to that of a 280- 300 motor. My boiler doesnt generate that much pressure so im now kind of stuck.
I need some oppinions as quite frankly im on the brink of chucking in the towel now as regaurding building a usuable engine for a boat. I think that a larger prop may have a better affect and grip the water creating more thrust than what ive allready tested, the thust i can feel with my hands from the prop will not be great but hopefully the larger prop will have a better screw affect in the water than the smaller ones which rely on speed to operate. What do people think?

richald · « **Reply #64 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:14:20 pm »

Mad_Mike

Sorry to hear your engine isn't generating the power/thrust you were
looking for - the obvious things to look at, to try and improve things
are, a larger diameter piston, or more pistons, or gearing down the
crankshaft before connecting it to the propshaft say 2:1 or 3:1

Richard

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #65 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:22:04 pm »

the larger diameter piston or more pistons wouldnt be possible because of the limitations of the boiler. The use of a gear box though does seem like a feasable solution but i feel the rpms would so low that id be back at square 1. It is a considerable option mind but the pitch on the propeller would probably have to be almost parrelel to the propshaft lol

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #66 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:45:18 pm »

i mentioned that the propspeed with the hyro propeller on was 120 rpms thats quite unaccurate actually as thats only 2 revolutions persecond. its closer to 400.

frazer heslop · « **Reply #67 on:** October 31, 2012, 09:53:55 pm »

Hi Mike, sorry to see the boiler is causing problems but remember she was built to run a small single wobbler 3/8 bore 1/2 stroke single acting.The gearing idea may help but I have my doubts.
The prop on the toy boat was a simple figure of 8 about 1 1/2 long and the pitch was bent onto it very crude but they where just toys.
As the engine seems to run the beam well how does that compare to the three cylinder engines capacity.I think you maybe trying to get a quart out of a pint pot sorry to say
Don't be to disheartened as its quite an achievement to have made it this far but maybe a rethink is in order ? and maybe a smaller engine or a larger boiler ?
best wishes
frazer

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #68 on:** October 31, 2012, 11:00:28 pm »

Quote from: frazer heslop on October 31, 2012, 09:53:55 pm

Hi Mike, sorry to see the boiler is causing problems but remember she was built to run a small single wobbler 3/8 bore 1/2 stroke single acting.The gearing idea may help but I have my doubts.
The prop on the toy boat was a simple figure of 8 about 1 1/2 long and the pitch was bent onto it very crude but they where just toys.
As the engine seems to run the beam well how does that compare to the three cylinder engines capacity.I think you maybe trying to get a quart out of a pint pot sorry to say
Don't be to disheartened as its quite an achievement to have made it this far but maybe a rethink is in order ? and maybe a smaller engine or a larger boiler ?
best wishes
frazer

The boiler is in no way causing problems, nope cant fault it

.
To give you an idea of how good it is you say its built for a single acting wobbler, well a wobbler of the dimensions youve given me would make it a 904mm3 engine or a 0.9cc. My beam engine is also single acting yet it has a 12mm bore and 20mm stroke thats equivalent to a 1/2 by 3/4, its total capacity is 2.26cc!! It is by far the best engine, runs the longest, generates most power and most efficent, it will start just as the water is coming to the boil. When we was talking on pm you said back then what the boiler was built for but you also said it MIGHT run a 10mm by 15mm engine, which granted is only slightly larger. I took this into a possible consideration but my experiments show that it can actually run an engine twice size of its original intention. My 3 cylinder radial is 1.2cc, your possible engine size it might run is 1.17cc. Im slightly over size again and thats because of my bad maths. What i was trying to do was take the volume of the single oscilator break it into 3 seperate units, the problem is my engine is still leaky because it has too many moving parts. If it had been a single cylinder it would have worked but not self starting.
Theoretically it should have worked as an experiment with a single oscilator with an 8mm by 8mm bore worked brilliantly and produces more than enough power, infact it couldnt use the steam fast enough and the SV was venting.
Im most grateful for the boiler and i cant complain at it as it does better than i could have wished for.

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #69 on:** October 31, 2012, 11:27:44 pm »

Have you looked at Henry Ford's first engine-1893
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKDHWE5owQ&feature=related
Regards,
Gerald.

frazer heslop · « **Reply #70 on:** October 31, 2012, 11:48:24 pm »

Hi Mike, Im glad its not the boiler I am little suprised how well its running the beam
What if you used a variable pitch prop on a single cylinder engine and set the throttle valve stop so the engine doesnt stop at least that way you will cut down on the losses due to leakage and friction ? and you could use a ratchet on a servo to restart a bit like a lubricator drive Arc Euro Trade sell the mech quite cheaply its how I did it on my model of Dolly a few years ago.
You can make the prop

There was a write up in the Model Boats Mag in the late 1980s I think.Some one maybe able to help locating it?
best wishes
frazer

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #71 on:** November 01, 2012, 12:04:22 am »

hmm seems horribly complex lol. Im now running my engine again, i think the problem is the reversing valve i made. The engine is fine not producing massive amounts of torque but the speed is compensating for it. must be in the 1200 rpm range. i think a gear reduction might be the answer. get a prop of substancial size spinning around 400 rpm, might do the job. Ive heard of these ratchet things and would seem a likely way to go if this doesnt work out.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #72 on:** November 01, 2012, 12:59:49 am »

Quote from: steamboatmodel on October 31, 2012, 11:27:44 pm

Have you looked at Henry Ford's first engine-1893
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKDHWE5owQ&feature=related
Regards,
Gerald.

i havent seen that before. Thanks for the link,

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #73 on:** November 01, 2012, 03:31:28 pm »

While im waiting for parts for my radial and materials for the 4 stroke engine ive continued with the experimental engine that i started writing a build blog about. Heres what ive done:
First i assembled the crank. The 3mm bar is pushed in to a hole at one end, this will be the crank pin. The stroke of the crank is 20mm, it will look odd at the minute but you will see where its going.

Mad_Mike · « **Reply #74 on:** November 01, 2012, 03:38:35 pm »

The crank is then soldered onto the bar with the notches in, Im not sure what to call it really, im open to ideas. Anyway The crankpin and bar have to be perfectly parralel, this takes some effort to do as you can imagine. I usually eye ball it and just hope. Its then soldered togeather then drilled 1.5mm. I cut off small peices of brass and force them into the the holes with the vice. They add reinforcement so the crank isnt held togeather by just solder alone. I then resolder the pins again and use a bit of extra flux to get the solder to flow right into the gaps and joints.

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Author Topic: Handmade steam engines.... on a budget (Read 53739 times)