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[bigbloke]

Hi all,

Ive been sailing both my yacht and electric powerboat at a local pond for several years [14 locks near newport], there has been no complaint, in fact the man that runs the visitor centre has reminded me that he has no boat to recover me [i always carry waders, a 10m roach pole, and in extremis have access to a small inflatable boat].

The pond is part of a canal heritage site, but is only used otherwise by occasional fishermen. It is not navigable as both ends are blocked and have been so for many years.

Recently a group of 3-4 guys I know have been there with electric boats on a saturday morning for about two hours. There are no fishermen, and they only use the venue for model boating until the weed levels stop play.

Today a laminated piece of council notepaper was found adjacent to the slipway stating:

MODEL BOATS NOT ALLOWED

Given there is a long-standing precedent [indeed the local MBC have displayed there on "open days"] i fail to see any just authority and suspect someone has taken the "law" into their own hands.

Anyone been here before ?

Grateful for any advice based on previous tacklings of councils. Currently my plan of attack is a stern but polite email to my local councillors with an accompanying photo.

Sadly with ownership of all other ponds in the city being passed to angling clubs or national trust there is nowhere else for us to sail.

I look forward to all constructive feedback.

Regards

BB[/i]

[jarvo]

Hi BB


Keep records of use, form a club with juniors if poss, always a good arm twisting point with councils, also find out who has the rights to the water, who has put their name on the sign.


Any stoppage of use has to be passed as a bylaw, not easy as there are established users.


Hope this helps


Mark

[derekwarner]

BB

Just a thought.......[find out who your enemy is].....[it may not be the Council]

Do not be confrontational in your first approach.......  ..without identifying yourself, telephone, be very polite & simply ask a junior in the Council Parks & Gardens Department [or the equivalent]..if they have knowledge of the said sign or any other information relating to it

After you have this information, it may allow you to form a course or plan of action

I am speaking from experience in dealing with our local City Council and our New South Wales Department of Lands on behalf of a Model Steam Train Co-operative here in OZ......& yes it is on Council owned land

Derek

[Jerry C]

In most countries generally you can't do anything unless the law says you can.
In Britain you can do what you like until the law says you can't. If it's real then the relevant bylaw reference will be on the card. Ignore the sign and eventually some one will show up and you'll maybe find out. To accelerate the process get a hard hat, a high viz coat a tape measure and a mate to assist you. Start measuring. It's the best way of finding who owns land when you're looking for a building plot!!!
Jerry.

[roycv]

Hi, I agree, carry on with the model boating do not let a virtually anonymous sign that anyone could have put up stop you.  There has to be a reason / bye law to stop you.
But do form a club etc gives you more power.  Register it with your local library web site.
There are few more innocent past times than sailing model boats.

Do not be deterred by the pen pushers.  I have been there myself and most of them are Wallys (no offence intended to any genuine Wallys).

I defied the local Highways Agency and won.  Why not take down the sign and put one up saying it is a "model boating lake" (by order)

Keep us posted and keep sailing.
best wishes Roy

[kinmel]

As said, form a club; members don't have to have a boat just yet so use relatives and friends to build up a membership.   Affiliate to the M.Y.A., the £11.50 or so membership gets you insurance and support.

If it is council owned then, as a club, formally apply to the council for a LIcence to sail on that water, get councillors to support your application.  Councils now need to demonstrate that assets are being used by the community.

People think licences are there to prevent things, but they are quite the opposite.  They are a legal authority to sail there and it is usually signed by a very senior member of council staff, no-one lower down the food chain ever dares challenge one.

Good luck.

[malcolmfrary]

The local council that looks after "my" lake has its bylaws on its website, but there is some heavy reading to find the right bits.  Last year we had prohibition notices put up, but they included a reason (algae giving brick red water) and a chain of contact.  This last should at the very least show the issuing department. 
It is useful to have a club, it gives you more of a voice that just being an individual.  My local lot were proposing some "improvements" to our park a few years ago which showed a level of professional ineptitude that beggared belief, but we managed to get a foot in the consultation process and most of the silliness has been changed. 
The council department you want will probably be something like "Sports and Leisure, Arts and Crafts", but if there is nothing to identify the source, the chances are that its just something put up by a troublemaker.

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

Hi all,

This is my local lake and often used for testing and shake down of newly constructed boats.  This news has come as a bit of a shock as I too enquired about sailing before I started and was told by the museum that they were not responsible for the lake. The Heritage site buildings are actually at the waterside.  I was unaware of the present situation as I don't go there very often.  I shall investigate the situation and report back.

Here are some of my craft on the waters. The videos actually show a tour around the lake so I'll dig out the references for a visual tour later if this thread develops.

ken

[roycv]

I can echo the last post from Malcolmfrary,  I can only think that having, in our case, that the "Leisure portfolio" was giving the idiot a job.
There seem to be well meaning people with different agandas.
It so often does not pay to ask politely as the easy answer is 'No'.  just do it and then when told you can't, ask why.  We had to wait for the Tory council to go before some common sense prevailed.

I am not advocating sailing on fishing lakes or private water just the odd place not in use.

One of the best defences is to say that you do have insurance cover and operate within a set of rules, so that there is no risk to anyone else.  The main thing is do not make any noise.
Sail on and best of luck.
Roy

[Colin Bishop]

It is possible that some local has made a complaint and in the absence of anyone to contact, somebody in the Council department has taken the line of least resistance.

It may have been the people with the electrics that prompted a moan to the Council, some people enjoy doing this.

Colin

[aeronut]

It looks as if the 14 locks site is run by a trust - probably best to contact them first to ask what they know about the notice - http://www.fourteenlocks.co.uk/contactus.html

[warspite]

I agree that some interfering busybody who does not like the idea of a tranquil stretch of water being torn up by a couple of noisy fast electrics, whereas in fast if they were nitro you could be forgiven that they appear to damage the water with discharges i.e. oil film, the sight of a beautifully crafted vessel slowly cruising around a small pond would in fact enthrawl the majority, no noise, no pollution - no disturbing the wild life or the fish (unless it was trawling).
Sail on and wait till the offender makes them self known. oops - that laminated piece of paper has been ripped down by an annoying youf - possibly  .

[Jonty]

  This is the kind of thing that reminds one of Mencken's (I think) definition of Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

I have just returned from my visit to the lake.  I enclose some pictures to show how beautiful it is there. I called in on the heritage site people to enquire about the sign.

It appears that when the fast electric boats were flashing around the lake, the wildlife  (Ducks and swans, who were brooding eggs) were frightened witless and in danger of abandoning their eggs.

Unfortunately, at this time, the council members were there as well and witnessed this.  The sign was produced  by them and has since been posted.  The heritage people cannot help us as it's not their department so they recommended contacting the council to plead the case for allowing other forms of model boats.  They did however, have reserves as to the removal of the sign, especially in the breeding season.

Here's a few pictures of the setting.

ken


 

[sparkey]

  What a lovely place,I am afraid it only takes a few idiots to spoil it for everyone,at this time of year you have to be careful of breeding birds and young chicks just takes a little care where you sail and keeping away from them,at our lake we are not allowed fast electric or i.c. because  of the wild life and I alway's sail away from them after all it's their home we are just visitors,Ray.      

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

Yes it is very pleasant.  Unfortunately,  as you can see,  it's not a very large water.

ken

 

[Netleyned]

Yes it is very pleasant.  Unfortunately,  as you can see,  it's not a very large water.

ken

I agree Ken,
It's a small area and with breeding wildlife it's a tad idiotic to run fast leccys.
It just spoils it for the yachts and cruisers that don't cause such trauma.
As Ray has said we share the water they live there we just visit.

Ned

[Colin Bishop]

Yes it is unfortunate, particularly as it will be very difficult to get the Councillors to understand the difference between fast electrics and scale models - and how would you class a crash tender for example?

Presumably this issue has come up elsewhere so maybe someone can suggest a means of approaching the problem.

In the meantime it shows that it is not always a good idea to jump to conclusions although it would have been helpful had the notice explained the reason for the ban - somebody missed a trick there.

Colin

[Netleyned]

With brushless motors and lipos a lot of sea Commander and Huntsman
Models let alone Seaplane tenders,crash boats and perkasas are almost
in the realms of fast elelectrics.
They are all scale as Colin has said, but the nature lovers see them as a threat
to wildlife and they are a bigger lobby than us boaters.
Treading on eggs comes to mind.

Ned

[Bob K]

A very sensitive subject this.  Our club has access to a superb large lake, used by many people, and a wide variety of wild life.  IC engines have been banned for ages although steam is allowed.  A few months ago some non club members went a bit antisocial with noisy speed boats, at a time other than our normal sailing times, and the next thing was a ban on ‘fast electrics’.  Eventually it was agreed that "scale models" could be exempt providing they were not going too fast, noisy or harassing the wildlife.

Reasonable discussion between the relevant authorities and club officers is always the best approach, but all it takes is a couple of idiots chasing the water birds to potentially spoil things for everybody.

[Shipmate60]

There is never a shortage of idiots willing to ruin anything for their bit of "fun"


Bob

[jarvo]

Hi All


On our lake we have a split area, we sail away from the roosting areas and we have markers in the water away from the fishing areas, my thoughts are don't cause animosity, that could bring down the drawbridge, arrange a demonstration day for the councillors, show them what we do properly, not the idiots who only want to test a boat and leave.


Form user rules, birds don't roost in the water, stay well away from the nesting sites.


The pictures show a launching ramp for dinghys etc, form the club with strong rules, show proper use for scale and sail. fast boats not allowed, committee to decide.


Mark

[w3bby]

On our boating lake we have swans, geese and ducks. None have ever shown the least bit of interest for our boats, they just ignore them. Case in point a few years ago we stopped a FSR-V 15 cc race as mummy duck decided this was the perfect time to take all the ducklings for a paddle straight across the middle of the course. Neither she nor the ducklings showed the slightest bit of distress from when they set out to the time all the boats had returned to shore. The race was restarted once they had cleared the course and they continued on their way.

The race schedule was again disrupted when they decided to return.

Generally I do not believe that wildlife see our boats as a threat but agree that one should not purposely annoy or otherwise drive to close. Personally I suspect that slower boats are probably seen as more of a threat as they may more resemble natural waterborne predators.

My 2 pennies, flame suit on.....

[Colin Bishop]

I don't think wildlife appreciate fast electrics whizzing around, it is bound to alarm them. But neither have I ever observed that slower boats appear to be perceived as a threat. The wildlife just tends to move out of the way in almost all cases. They know how to recognise a genuine predator.

Plus I'm not sure just how many waterborne predators there are on our ponds which might resemble model boats?

Colin

[roycv]

Hi all, at St. Albans we have been running round the pole boats at all speeds up to 100+ mph for 70 odd years and the wild life are still there and thriving, usually watching from a distance.
I understand that there have not been any accidents to the wild life.
Also the wild life park at Pangbourne, Beale Park, welcome model boaters on their lakes.  They have rare breeds as well.

Roy